The Watering Hole

Both are very nice Jon.

I don't hear a modeler there. Do you? Seriously. Please be honest tho.

I really like both Jon's clips.

I like all 3 of Jon's clips.  Different tones for different things.  

Dumb question - when profiling, do you have to turn the knobs at all, like for the Kemper to figure out the range of the treble knob, etc?

Zonta, I don't hear a modeler.  However, I realize at some point we may learn what to listen for to identify a difference - or maybe there isn't.  The thing is extremely dynamic sounding, and doesn't seem to exhibit the pick attack problems like the PODs did.  

I am curious to whether there is any noticeable latency playing through it, like there was with the PODs.

my assumption was that you'd have to profile every setting you like on your amp - Lance said something about profiling it when you had it in it's sweetspot... so I took that to mean that you'd have to profile every setting that sounded good/different.

and I agree on the pick attack, that lack of weirdness is the biggest advance for modelling here imo.

otherwise, I think it sounds great - but I'm not sure it's better than an amp direct to IR cabs... so, unless I was looking to spend > $2k on amps soon this wouldn't really give me anything I don't have access to already or be justifiable on cost. pretty cool (and fugly) device though!

Agreed Sheep, I am getting great results using impulses when I need to record quietly.  Takes a beast computer to monitor directly, but the sandy bridge CPUs are really the ticket for this.  Sonar has a nice feature that lets you route any given tracks straight to the main outs, bypassing any latency inducing effects that are on the busses.  I can pop my impulse into the fx bin of the track, even a bit of delay or verb on it just for "feel", and the latency is lower than I ever had with a POD.  I may not be explaining it well, but it works great and lets me record "normally" - no compromise on sound while recording.

aye, I don't have latency issues at all going direct to IR cabs in logic on an iMac (i7) so long as I don't use too many post effects (mainly a particular limiter) - can run delay and reverb along with superior drummer without any noticeable latency - if only I could convince myself that IR cabs sounded as "real" as a mic, I'd be set... heh.


btw, off topic... or, actually relating to another thread... if I remember correctly, you used a POD on Losing Time right? one track just came up in the ol' shuffle and I'll be damned but there was some feedback on it!  ;)  ;D

Awesome tone...& unbelievable playing!   Give my left nut to play like that!!!  ;D ;)

Krankzilla Said
Dumb question - when profiling, do you have to turn the knobs at all, like for the Kemper to figure out the range of the treble knob, etc?


Jon Said: When you profile an amp, irrespective of where the "real" knobs on the amp are, all kemper knobs are in the 12 o'clock position.   The bass, middle and treble and presence controls are all after the amp so they have no interaction on the way the sound is produced like a real tone stack does.




Ironsheep said
my assumption was that you'd have to profile every setting you like on your amp

Jon Said:  Yes and No.   There is no adjustable tone stack within the Kemper, therefore to get different amounts of "juice" and the way it reacts you really need to make a profile of the amp at different settings.  Having said that, I have found that by placing an EQ in the effects section before the amp, you can simulate a tone stack....works quite well actually.


Ironsheep said:  but I'm not sure it's better than an amp direct to IR cabs..

Jon Said: It's no better, but the advantage is that you have access to lots of different amps....too many in fact as it starts the old game of chasing the sound !



Latency:  I'm not noticing any latency at all.

On the first few clips, I think those guitars have something to do with it too.  Honestly the only clip that really blew me away was the Tyler (golub-crunch-mod-1).  That Tyler clip to me is very nearly ideal tone.  Interesting to me, because those other guitars are insanely nice guitars too.  but this tonegod guy or whatever has got every freaking guitar and pedal and amp under the sun...


There's two things that Kemper can do that would be probably fairly simple that would make this company and product line better.

One, during profiling, have the user set each tone knob to its minimum and maximum, to capture the actual tone stack.

Two, release the "pod" version.  No ability to profile amps, but a preset selection of say 20 amps and cabs, sell it for $350.  I'd buy that, even if I didn't end up using it much.

My favourite way of using the Kemper at the moment is like this:

1) Kemper amp "off"
2) effects loop send (4th position after all other effects) - send the signal out to my "real" JCA20H
3) Return from the real JCA20H via THD hotplate back into the Kemper

That gives me a "real" amp in place of the kemper amp and I can use all the kemper effects both before and after the real amp and use the Kemper cabs and delay and reverb etc.

The main reason I like doing this is that I then have real control over the amps tonestack, and by changing just the cab there are a remarkable number of sounds to be coaxed from the same amp.


An expensive "cab" box, but works really well like this.


Whilst the Kemper amps profiles are very good, they still do not exactly react the way the real tube amp does.  The most noticeable thing is the sustain and liveliness of the real amp over the profiled one.   It's minor, but it definitely is there.

Kemper is busy creating tone stack/s, he's also busy working on a bunch of other clever stuff.
Think about it, he's been giving free updates for the Virus synth for more than 15 years, he'll never stop working on the Kemper, it can only get better.

Regarding Profiles of sweet spots.
What do you do if you have a 3 channel amp, do you crank the gain on the clean channel to get crunch, or do you switch to the crunch channel?..you hit the footswitch and change channels, same with the Kemper.
If you want to Profile your 3 channel amp you'll make 6 or so profiles, 2 of each channel...that should take you about 30 minutes.

Jon — Feb 22, 2012

Whilst the Kemper amps profiles are very good, they still do not exactly react the way the real tube amp does.  The most noticeable thing is the sustain and liveliness of the real amp over the profiled one.   It's minor, but it definitely is there.

I'd like to see some of your rigs, hopefully I'll see the Compressor stomp in position 2, after the wah...will I?  :)
The most important part of any digital device, a great Compressor.

Lance — Feb 22, 2012Kemper is busy creating tone stack/s, he's also busy working on a bunch of other clever stuff.
Think about it, he's been giving free updates for the Virus synth for more than 15 years, he'll never stop working on the Kemper, it can only get better.

Regarding Profiles of sweet spots.
What do you do if you have a 3 channel amp, do you crank the gain on the clean channel to get crunch, or do you switch to the crunch channel?..you hit the footswitch and change channels, same with the Kemper.
If you want to Profile your 3 channel amp you'll make 6 or so profiles, 2 of each channel...that should take you about 30 minutes.

A lot of the amps people will want to profile are one channel amps.  I hear what you are saying and I actually didn't mention the gain, which is a whole other thing and probably impossible to profile.    The preamp gain knob is one thing, but on a one-channel amp, even one without a gain knob, the range of the master volume on a tube amp is probably far too complex to store in simple file.  

I was talking about the tone knobs.  Even a weak approximation, a straight line interpolation between minimum and maximum on each tone knob, would at least give you the range of the tone stack of an amp.  

Lance — Feb 22, 2012[quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/50#60 date=1329937888]

Whilst the Kemper amps profiles are very good, they still do not exactly react the way the real tube amp does.  The most noticeable thing is the sustain and liveliness of the real amp over the profiled one.   It's minor, but it definitely is there.

I'd like to see some of your rigs, hopefully I'll see the Compressor stomp in position 2, after the wah...will I?  :)
The most important part of any digital device, a great Compressor.


Huh? There's no compressor in the tube amp...

well, tbh, the tube amp IS the compressor ;) :)

Hmm, that is a real downfall actually - you're getting a sound that is maximized for someone else's guitar and pickups.   If/when he gets the tone stack thing happening, that's when it would get interesting for me.  I don't need to profile my own amps, I already have them :)

Also agree with charger, and have mentioned before, a non-profiling cheaper version with the ability to load profiles.  Then again I guess the thing revolves around people creating and sharing profiles.  

Jesus!!!

This is like a Guantanamo Bay interrogation.

Charger, do you gig at all?
Strange, most of my buddies who are full time Pro musicians and gig 4 or 5 times a week have a Compressor pedal in the #1 position on their pedalboards...and they're gigging through tube amps.
I wonder why they do that, after all, the tubes will do all the compression, why use a Compressor pedal?

KrankZilla — Feb 22, 2012Also agree with charger, and have mentioned before, a non-profiling cheaper version with the ability to load profiles.  Then again I guess the thing revolves around people creating and sharing profiles.  

They have no intention of bringing out a non Profiling version, they say the cost saving is too small to warrant it.
They're working on a Kemper pedalboard and a rack version.

Lance — Feb 22, 2012Jesus!!!

This is like a Guantanamo Bay interrogation.

Charger, do you gig at all?
Strange, most of my buddies who are full time Pro musicians and gig 4 or 5 times a week have a Compressor pedal in the #1 position on their pedalboards...and they're gigging through tube amps.
I wonder why they do that, after all, the tubes will do all the compression, why use a Compressor pedal?

1-Sustain
2-Boost
3-Even more compression

For those three.

KrankZilla — Feb 22, 2012Hmm, that is a real downfall actually - you're getting a sound that is maximized for someone else's guitar and pickups.   If/when he gets the tone stack thing happening, that's when it would get interesting for me.  I don't need to profile my own amps, I already have them :)

It is a downfall.  I've read so many times that users download a profile and say doesn't sound like the soundcloud clip they heard from the guy who made the profile.....well, it's not surprising really as he set his amp up to sound good with his guitar...plug a different guitar into the same setup and it will sound different.

Lance is correct in that Kemper is working on a Tonestack as I did read that somewhere from Chris Kemper, so hopefully that's not far off as that is the bit that is of real interest for me too and is so surprising that it was left out !.   It's good as it is, but could be so much better.

Lance — Feb 22, 2012Jesus!!!

This is like a Guantanamo Bay interrogation.

Charger, do you gig at all?
Strange, most of my buddies who are full time Pro musicians and gig 4 or 5 times a week have a Compressor pedal in the #1 position on their pedalboards...and they're gigging through tube amps.
I wonder why they do that, after all, the tubes will do all the compression, why use a Compressor pedal?

Yeah, so do I, see attached.

Lance, do you think I'm an idiot?  There's a disconnect here, Jon said there was something different about the sustain of the amp profile compared to the real thing.  He's sitting there with the amp he profiled, and with the profile... And you're telling him to turn on the digital compressor.  

I use compressors on every rig in the room, but not all the time.  The Ross comp (attached, we've got three different versions) is excellent for boost and spanky clean, and especially in front of a wooly fuzz a la a big muff, to tighten it up, lots of low-end cut there.  The optical comps go on bass rigs or on amps that don't use fuzz pedals and don't have a ton of low end.  But all the amps sound great without compressors too.  And yes, I do gig, and no, I usually don't use compressors when I gig, except when I do a bass gig.  Probably because I also don't use my big muff for most gigs...

Lance — Feb 22, 2012[quote author=KrankZilla link=1329843599/50#67 date=1329943179]Also agree with charger, and have mentioned before, a non-profiling cheaper version with the ability to load profiles.  Then again I guess the thing revolves around people creating and sharing profiles.  

They have no intention of bringing out a non Profiling version, they say the cost saving is too small to warrant it.
They're working on a Kemper pedalboard and a rack version.

That's a shame.  They could probably seriously dent the competition, and make a large bit of coin, with a Pod-level device.

ironsheep — Feb 22, 2012well, tbh, the tube amp IS the compressor ;) :)

Yes, but I believe the KPA emulates the compression of the tubes.

Charger here is the Shiva:

http://soundcloud.com/strandedonaplanet/shiva-kemper-1

http://soundcloud.com/strandedonaplanet/shiva-kemper-2

One is Kemper and the other is the real amp. He hasn't told which is which yet.

I'd assume from the distortion in the first clip at the peak that it's the miced amp.  That micing technique for the clip and the profile doesn't capture the way a Shiva sounds to me... sounds thin and uninspiring... like a ribbon mic that didn't get the girth of it, or a haphazardly placed SM57.

Listen:
http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/MP3.php

Lyle Workman's clips of the 6L6 Shiva are my tonal gold standard... the one time I played a Shiva, it was very much in that territory.

This is really killer (Lyle Workman):

http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/shiva%20clean%20lyle%20w.%2004.mp3

ironsheep — Feb 22, 2012


btw, off topic... or, actually relating to another thread... if I remember correctly, you used a POD on Losing Time right? one track just came up in the ol' shuffle and I'll be damned but there was some feedback on it!  ;)  ;D

I used the XT and the Vetta for most of that.  I remember in cup of Joe I really wanted the XT to feed back for me after the breakdown and Dory yelling at me, lol.  I had to crank the monitors up a bit to do that.   The feedback in the track Losing Time was the Vetta, was tracking direct while playing it live in the room - it did a really cool feedback natural pitch change during it. I remember thinking that was the coolest thing on there, lol :)   Thanks for listening!

charger — Feb 22, 2012I'd assume from the distortion in the first clip at the peak that it's the miced amp.  That micing technique for the clip and the profile doesn't capture the way a Shiva sounds to me... sounds thin and uninspiring... like a ribbon mic that didn't get the girth of it, or a haphazardly placed SM57.

Listen:
http://www.bogneramplification.com/customshop/MP3.php

Lyle Workman's clips of the 6L6 Shiva are my tonal gold standard... the one time I played a Shiva, it was very much in that territory.

If Lyle mikes the Shiva exactly like he did in these clips and makes Profiles, and then records in the same studio using the same guitar/same player and the same pre/post studio processing, his Kemper clips will sound the same.

There's one thing that I find really annoying with the Kemper and that is that you cannot create a profile by distance mic'ing the guitar amp, well you can but the results are crap.   Basically the kemper capture process cannot capture a long enough slice of whatever it is it is capturing.  I like the sound of an amp when mic'd from the other side of a room. When you get this right it really does sound "big" and full. However, I have tried several times with the Kemper of capturing a profile in this manner and it just doesn't work.  The sound of the profile has all sorts of weird artifacts introduced into the sound and the "distance" of the room is completely truncated way below the actual length of the real room space.   This is a shame as that is one thing that I was really looking forward to doing with the Kemper, but can't be done....or at least not with the current firmware, so it may be possible at some future date (I hope).  The hardware (I believe) is up to the job it's just the firmware needs revision to make it happen, or maybe the hardware cannot process that long a capture.

It's great for capturing the cab where the mic is shoved up against the grill or a few inches away, but place the mic the other side of the room and the results are very poor, nothing like the sound that the mic is actually hearing.

Having said all of that, I'm still enjoying it and will keep it.    

Jon — Feb 23, 2012I like the sound of an amp when mic'd from the other side of a room.

Any examples of this online?

The example I heard of Jay Mitchell's far field IR sounded like shit, he might as well have put the mic on the grillcloth and added reverb, it would have sounded the same.

Thinking about it, your recordings sound exactly like what you're describing, they sound like you miked your cab from "far away", and you've done that all with reverb.

Doing it with reverb doesn't give the same result by any means...it's a cludge.  Mic'ing from far away, when you get the right mic position give a truly big sound and lots of cabinet "air" and character that you just can't get with reverb.

I've found the secret to getting the liveliness feel back into the Kemper

www.mp3.mushroom-farm.com/download/kemper/livelynesstest.mp3

I like this tone a lot, you may not of course and ignore the multitude of bum notes all over the place this is just to demonstrate that this now feels very "alive"

Jon — Feb 23, 2012I've found the secret to getting the liveliness feel back into the Kemper

www.mp3.mushroom-farm.com/download/kemper/livelynesstest.mp3

I like this tone a lot, you may not of course and ignore the multitude of bum notes all over the place this is just to demonstrate that this now feels very "alive"

Is that a profile of your JCA20?  Lemme guess... new strings?

Lance — Feb 23, 2012[quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#80 date=1330006878]I like the sound of an amp when mic'd from the other side of a room.

Any examples of this online?

The example I heard of Jay Mitchell's far field IR sounded like shit, he might as well have put the mic on the grillcloth and added reverb, it would have sounded the same.

Thinking about it, your recordings sound exactly like what you're describing, they sound like you miked your cab from "far away", and you've done that all with reverb.

Really? I've recorded a roomful of guitar amps, drums, bass, piano and keys every week for almost two years, sounds pretty righteous to me.

e.g... http://www.greenote.com/mp3/ThursdayJam/02.17.12/02.17.12.F.mp3  (two stereo pairs of mics, large diaphragm condensers at the corners of the rooms, ribbons blumlein near the center)

charger — Feb 23, 2012[quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#83 date=1330019708]I've found the secret to getting the liveliness feel back into the Kemper

www.mp3.mushroom-farm.com/download/kemper/livelynesstest.mp3

I like this tone a lot, you may not of course and ignore the multitude of bum notes all over the place this is just to demonstrate that this now feels very "alive"

Is that a profile of your JCA20?  Lemme guess... new strings?


No, not new strings....I'm using the real JCA20H and just using the Kemper for the Cab.   Honestly there is a world of difference between the real amp and the profile of it.  They both sound the same, but the "playability" of the real amp is far superior to the profiled one.  Using a compressor in front of the amp is not the answer as that just ruins the attack etc, and of course why would I need to do this anyway as I don't use a compressor in front of the real amp.   The Kemper still has its uses for me, but it doesn't replace a real tube amp in my view...just isn't as good (it sounds as good just doesn't feel/play as good)

Jon — Feb 23, 2012[quote author=charger link=1329843599/75#84 date=1330020739][quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#83 date=1330019708]I've found the secret to getting the liveliness feel back into the Kemper

www.mp3.mushroom-farm.com/download/kemper/livelynesstest.mp3

I like this tone a lot, you may not of course and ignore the multitude of bum notes all over the place this is just to demonstrate that this now feels very "alive"

Is that a profile of your JCA20?  Lemme guess... new strings?


No, not new strings....I'm using the real JCA20H and just using the Kemper for the Cab.   Honestly there is a world of difference between the real amp and the profile of it.  They both sound the same, but the "playability" of the real amp is far superior to the profiled one.  Using a compressor in front of the amp is not the answer as that just ruins the attack etc, and of course why would I need to do this anyway as I don't use a compressor in front of the real amp.   The Kemper still has its uses for me, but it doesn't replace a real tube amp in my view...just isn't as good (it sounds as good just doesn't feel/play as good)


Even through the same monitoring chain?  

charger — Feb 23, 2012[quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#86 date=1330022792][quote author=charger link=1329843599/75#84 date=1330020739][quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#83 date=1330019708]I've found the secret to getting the liveliness feel back into the Kemper

www.mp3.mushroom-farm.com/download/kemper/livelynesstest.mp3

I like this tone a lot, you may not of course and ignore the multitude of bum notes all over the place this is just to demonstrate that this now feels very "alive"

Is that a profile of your JCA20?  Lemme guess... new strings?


No, not new strings....I'm using the real JCA20H and just using the Kemper for the Cab.   Honestly there is a world of difference between the real amp and the profile of it.  They both sound the same, but the "playability" of the real amp is far superior to the profiled one.  Using a compressor in front of the amp is not the answer as that just ruins the attack etc, and of course why would I need to do this anyway as I don't use a compressor in front of the real amp.   The Kemper still has its uses for me, but it doesn't replace a real tube amp in my view...just isn't as good (it sounds as good just doesn't feel/play as good)


Even through the same monitoring chain?  


Yes, I'm monitoring this just through my Alesis MK2 monitors.  Sounds the same in both cases, but the real amp is just so much easier to play, but of course if you had only ever played the profiled version of the amp and not the real one you would never know, but your playing would be missing out !

charger — Feb 23, 2012[quote author=Lance link=1329843599/75#81 date=1330010169][quote author=Jon G link=1329843599/75#80 date=1330006878]I like the sound of an amp when mic'd from the other side of a room.

Any examples of this online?

The example I heard of Jay Mitchell's far field IR sounded like shit, he might as well have put the mic on the grillcloth and added reverb, it would have sounded the same.

Thinking about it, your recordings sound exactly like what you're describing, they sound like you miked your cab from "far away", and you've done that all with reverb.

Really? I've recorded a roomful of guitar amps, drums, bass, piano and keys every week for almost two years, sounds pretty righteous to me.

e.g... http://www.greenote.com/mp3/ThursdayJam/02.17.12/02.17.12.F.mp3  (two stereo pairs of mics, large diaphragm condensers at the corners of the rooms, ribbons blumlein near the center)

Maybe I'm missing something?  :-/

I just think that recording on the grill cloth and adding reverb, and recording 20 feet away are so different as to not even be in the same ballpark.  Even recording from 2 inches away and 10 inches away is radically different.  

Sure, you might not want to record at 20 feet, but 1'-2' is very common for ribbons or condensers on a guitar amp. What is the theoretical distance limit for the KPA?

I've been playing around with the real amp and IR cabs today.....and I must say I prefer the real amp into an IR cab than the Kemper any day of the week, especially using the Andy Sneap IR cabs.

Not sure where the Kemper goes now.  I may keep it just in case future firmware upgrades gets it to where it should be....on the other hand I might sell it and buy me another tube head :-)

Jon, is this still based on playability?  Or have you found a tonal difference in your experiments?

KrankZilla — Feb 24, 2012Jon, is this still based on playability?  Or have you found a tonal difference in your experiments?

It's a bit of both really.  The real tube head just has so much more "life" in it and reacts so much more to touch.  The cab sound on the kemper is very good, but the capture of the cab is so short that you can't get the cabinet "whomp" for want of a better term into it.   I spent a couple of hours today A/B'ing between the Kemper and then the JCA20H with Andy Sneap IR cabs and there's just so much more of everything with the real amp....all the good juicy stuff that happens when you crank the output tubes and change the bass/mid/treble etc.

Expensive way to find out, but I had to give it a go otherwise I would never know,  but then again it will sell....just thinking of what tube amp to add to the family now  ;D

well, once again, Jon saves me a ton of time and money - thanks Jon! heh :)

ironsheep — Feb 24, 2012well, once again, Jon saves me a ton of time and money - thanks Jon! heh :)

LOL  ;D  it's a pleasure.....I think?

are these Sneap IRs you're referring to the guitarhack cabs or something else?

ironsheep — Feb 24, 2012are these Sneap IRs you're referring to the guitarhack cabs or something else?

Yes, that's the ones.  Very good. Do you have them, if not I can put them up.

I don't have them right now, but I've seen them around - can d/l if needed. I'm pretty happy with the redwirez uberkab right now - just wanted to make sure there weren't some other/new sneap IRs floating around!

btw, the impedance curve IRs they* added (don't know when... but they were new to me) make a HUGE difference - sounds very realistic.


*they = redwirez

ironsheep — Feb 24, 2012I don't have them right now, but I've seen them around - can d/l if needed. I'm pretty happy with the redwirez uberkab right now - just wanted to make sure there weren't some other/new sneap IRs floating around!

btw, the impedance curve IRs they* added (don't know when... but they were new to me) make a HUGE difference - sounds very realistic.


*they = redwirez

I have some redwirez stuff and I did download the impedance curve IRs but haven't really played around with those yet.