The Watering Hole

Hookbender — Apr 14, 2012
Why don't we bring factories back home? Because prices would go up? So.

You just argued that prices are too high for gas? but you'd pay more for in iPod, or a TV?

"Those jobs aren't coming back."

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120123/ARTICLE/301239999

Hookbender — Apr 14, 2012

Why don't we bring factories back home? Because prices would go up? So.

Prices would go up exponentially.  It doesn't even make sense in a business world to produce certain things in the US.  

Take cars.  I used to work in the auto industry.  Why pay an American 40+ bucks an hour, plus health benefits, plus retirement packages; when I can get some guy in Mexico, China, or South Africa to do the same job for pennies on the dollar and NO benefits?  It's a HUGE savings in labor alone.  Plus until recently we could go to other countries and not worry so much about safety regulations for workers which also saved a ton of money.

SOME business is coming back.  My wife's company used to mass produce items in China.  But now that China is getting its taste of money and starting to produce a lot of wealth the prices are going up.  So now to pay them and then ship the product back on a boat has become more costly than having it produced in the US.

It's really simple business practice dude.  Would I rather pay extremely high wages and benefits, plus pay incredible taxes or go somewhere else and not have to pay outrageous salaries plus benefits, and get huge tax breaks?  I don't give a rip how American you think it is to buy American but the fact is it is too costly.  Plus you cannot show me the premium quality anymore that made in America used to stand for.  I have ONE American car.  It's a Ford.....the ONE American company that didn't shoot itself in the dick.  And I have a BMW.  It's german and it's built like a fucking tank.  It happens to have been built in South Africa.....but the quality is still there.  Prior to this I owned American cars.  And they were garbage.  We had Japanese cars that we drove till the wheels literally were falling off at over 200,000 miles and all we ever had to do was put gas in it and change the fucking oil.  I spent WAY more money on Dodge vehicles (yes I was dumb enough to buy 2 of them) than all other cars I have ever owned per each car.  I couldn't keep those pieces of shit on the road.   For me to buy American, outside of Ford, it would take a miracle in the auto world.

Motorcycles?  I wouldn't own an overpriced Harley.  I could buy a rice burner for a fraction of the cost and literally have nothing for maintenance outside of usual wear and tear.  I can afford a Harley, but WHY would I want to?  I would want to RIDE it.  Not ride it, fix it, ride it, fix it.  Fuck that.

And a guy in your position certainly would prefer a Thai hooker over an American hooker any day. ;D

What's funny about cars is, even with foreign brands, is finding out where they ARE made.  The BMW Z3, when it debuted, was made in South Carolina.  They have moved Z4 production back to Germany, but that was to move the SC plant to make the BMW X5.

When Mazda offered trucks, they were actually made by Ford (re-labeled Ranger).  Hell, the Mazda Tribute is just a relabeled Escape.  

About the only US maker I'd buy is Ford.  I got rid of my Ranger with 188,000 miles and the only 'repair' I had to do was bearing in rear differential.  The guy I sold it to a 8 years ago is still driving it with little problem.  

That said, I have a Nissan Rogue...LOL.  

It's not that Chinese workers make pennies on the dollar... daily wages are much higher than they once were, about $20 a day for electronics.  A US worker would make probably $96 a day.  Add in the cost of shipping products and parts back and forth, and the inevitable failure rate when you have the kind of high turnover they have in Chinese factories, and it's a few cents of savings.  The real reason that jobs aren't coming back in manufacturing is infrastructure.  China has mega factories, and mega-factory cities, and high speed everything going everywhere, and the ability to plunk down a new factory or a new friggin city anywhere they want.  The central government can decide to make a city for iPads, and there's not a damn thing the people can do about it.  They can dam rivers, flood villages, move people at will, etc.  China is not a democracy, and it's got a powerful, cash-rich central government.  We can't build freaking highways in the US because no one wants to pay anything to do anything, and we can't raze towns because everyone's fine with a factory as long as it's not in their backyard.

Robert Reich has a good discussion on it here:

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/17/the_factory_jobs_arent_coming_back/

charger — Apr 16, 2012It's not that Chinese workers make pennies on the dollar... daily wages are much higher than they once were, about $20 a day for electronics.  A US worker would make probably $96 a day.  Add in the cost of shipping products and parts back and forth, and the inevitable failure rate when you have the kind of high turnover they have in Chinese factories, and it's a few cents of savings.  The real reason that jobs aren't coming back in manufacturing is infrastructure.  China has mega factories, and mega-factory cities, and high speed everything going everywhere, and the ability to plunk down a new factory or a new friggin city anywhere they want.  The central government can decide to make a city for iPads, and there's not a damn thing the people can do about it.  They can dam rivers, flood villages, move people at will, etc.  China is not a democracy, and it's got a powerful, cash-rich central government.  We can't build freaking highways in the US because no one wants to pay anything to do anything, and we can't raze towns because everyone's fine with a factory as long as it's not in their backyard.

"Pennies on the dollar" was just an expression.  Compared to what you'd have to pay an American it's like paying pennies on the dollar because the savings employee to employee are so much that it's crazy.  It's so much that it allows a company to pay workers halfway across the world to do the labor and then still be able to ship the product on a boat around the world, even with gas prices being what they are and even with customs taxes.  That's CRAZY when you think about it.   We are just now getting to a point in SOME industries where it is becoming at some level more economic to bring the work back to the states.  But that's really because China is becoming such an economic power house that it can now push for better wages.  Not only that but our government is regulating the types of work environments that American companies are providing for their labor regardless of where it's at.  

Take Apple for example.  We've had to up the standard thus I would think that Apple products will spike a bit in price soon.  There has become a stigma that we are employing people in sweat shops.  I'm sure in some areas that is very true.  Not true at all for my wife's business, but I'm sure others take advantage of loose regulations.  

We have the ability to have factories here and mass produce also.  BUT then you have taxes that are outrageous.  That alone makes people build their factories in other places are at least their corporate offices.  The executives of my wife's company are all in the USA.  The labor is all in Central America and China.  The home of operations?  Caymen Islands.  Why?  It's a tax shelter pure and simple.   And what's REALLY funny about that is we hear all this talk about the "Buffet tax".  HE owns my wife's business.  Even he understands how to dodge the tax game.

Anyway, I pretty much know how this is going to end...
Hook's going to slam on Obama for the remainder of the cycle... then, on election day, he's going to vote for whoever is up in the polls.
And Georgia will go Republican anyway.

charger — Apr 17, 2012Anyway, I pretty much know how this is going to end...
Hook's going to slam on Obama for the remainder of the cycle... then, on election day, he's going to vote for whoever is up in the polls.
And Georgia will go Republican anyway.

No, I have no intention of slamming Obama, just critically analyzing, from a very elementary position, what he's done and what he said he would do, versus what hasn't been done.

I actually think he did very well in his first 4 years especially stepping into the mess he did. But wasting 800 billion tax payer dollars is pretty inexcusable. Yes, I think it was a waste. The last time I checked, about 30% actually was used as intended. However, at least the economy has leveled out a bit, and improved much, really.

I live in North Carolina now. Not Georgia. And, I still would vote Obama over McCain, although crazy Palin was a pretty big factor.....at least after the first few weeks of yankin my chain while thinking about her went away. ;D ;D ;D

How was the 800 billion wasted?

Well, Chargers state was one of the largest recipients of the money... How the hell is Cali right now?

Benefits and entitlements, pretty much says it all right?

Who knows for a fact if it really helped or not? Economist will argue that for years. Until it's determined, I'm not for that kind of action to fix a problem that is essentially caused by the same thing. Just me. Ole common sense dude, ya know?


http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/default.aspx

Hookbender — Apr 17, 2012Well, Chargers state was one of the largest recipients of the money... How the hell is Cali right now?

Benefits and entitlements, pretty much says it all right?

Who knows for a fact if it really helped or not? Economist will argue that for years. Until it's determined, I'm not for that kind of action to fix a problem that is essentially caused by the same thing. Just me. Ole common sense dude, ya know?


http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/default.aspx

My state has spent the last 40 years subsidizing every other state in the nation, and still does... I feel no sadness at all that we got a big chunk of stimulus.  And my state's doing pretty well, now that we elected somebody who actually gives a crap about fixing stuff and has no pathological need to get re-elected.

By the way, California got $22.1 billion in stimulus... Your state got $5.1 billion.
California has 37,692,000 residents.  Your state has 9,656,000.
California got $586 per person. Your state got $528 per person.  Not that big a difference... especially when you consider how much more we put into the tax base.

I say put Obama in the presidency with a Democratic majority and fillibuster proof senate, and you will see shit change.  I think that's the wakeup call the RepubliCANTs need.  Cuz right now those fuckers are doing nothing but stopping, obscuring, spinning, and pissing on this country, doing everything in their power to hamper recovery, and still failing.

Over a third was tax cuts.  Pretty sure all of the states used it to shore up their crumbling messes.  How much of it went out of the country or into large bank accounts?

So Charger, your obviously voting for Obama no matter what. Sticking with your liberal guns, so to speak. You have issues with Obama, but are unwilling to give someone else a chance to do better..... because why? He's a mormon? Thats not a liberal position. So why is it you dislike Romney or his political stance?

BINGEWOOD — Apr 18, 2012Over a third was tax cuts.  Pretty sure all of the states used it to shore up their crumbling messes.  How much of it went out of the country or into large bank accounts?

Speculation. Not worth discussing. Not sure the government knows where the money went.

I know you're not.

Hookbender — Apr 18, 2012So Charger, your obviously voting for Obama no matter what. Sticking with your liberal guns, so to speak. You have issues with Obama, but are unwilling to give someone else a chance to do better..... because why? He's a mormon? Thats not a liberal position. So why is it you dislike Romney or his political stance?

The problems with BamBam aren't anything "liberal".  Romney won't get any closer, nawt by a long shot...

What stance?  Less tax for the filthy rich?

The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

Hookbender — Apr 18, 2012So Charger, your obviously voting for Obama no matter what. Sticking with your liberal guns, so to speak. You have issues with Obama, but are unwilling to give someone else a chance to do better..... because why? He's a mormon? Thats not a liberal position. So why is it you dislike Romney or his political stance?

We gave Romney a chance, when he was Bush.  

What did we get?  Tax cuts that were completely unnecessary and were the single biggest factor in making our deficit unsustainable.  

What does Romney support?  Does he support getting rid of those unnecessary tax cuts?  Does he support taxing the rich?  Or is he going to continue to make life sweet as fuck for the 1% like him who really, really need more money?

I suggest you look into what he actually supports as far as monetary policy.  It seems your vote is based on Obama's "failure", which as far as I can tell, didn't actually happen.

Hookbender — Apr 18, 2012The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

You don't think it's a problem that you and I pay 25% and Romney pays 13-15%?  Even Obama pays 21%.  Is that "fair"?  Is it fairer that we, for whom everything costs more, should pay a higher tax percentage? Think about it, your rent and groceries are probably 35% of your pay at least.  For folks like Romney it's probably 1-5% of his income.  Buying a car is a major decision for you or I.  Romney "didn't make very much in speaking fees"--meaning he only made $370,000--in speaking fees! Not counting his "actual" income... $22 million in 2010.  How long do you think he has to worry about buying a car, or a TV, or clothes for his kids for school, or a house?  Not very fucking long.  Romney's got no idea what it means to be poor or middle class or struggle to make your check stretch.  He cannot relate to what most of America needs, but he can sure as shit relate to a bunch of rich dudes who need to preserve their tax breaks, incentives, and shelters.

By preserving their tax breaks, incentives, and shelters, they're saying "We aren't putting in on these wars, you guys can use your kids social security and medicare to pay for that shit."

What are Mitt's stances?

charger — Apr 18, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#66 date=1334747296]The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

You don't think it's a problem that you and I pay 25% and Romney pays 13-15%?  Even Obama pays 21%.  Is that "fair"?  Is it fairer that we, for whom everything costs more, should pay a higher tax percentage? Think about it, your rent and groceries are probably 35% of your pay at least.  For folks like Romney it's probably 1-5% of his income.  Buying a car is a major decision for you or I.  Romney "didn't make very much in speaking fees"--meaning he only made $370,000--in speaking fees! Not counting his "actual" income... $22 million in 2010.  How long do you think he has to worry about buying a car, or a TV, or clothes for his kids for school, or a house?  Not very fucking long.  Romney's got no idea what it means to be poor or middle class or struggle to make your check stretch.  He cannot relate to what most of America needs, but he can sure as shit relate to a bunch of rich dudes who need to preserve their tax breaks, incentives, and shelters.

I'd love to have lower taxes. Be great.

Have you ever thought we are kinda lucky to have millionaires? In 2 years he paid in 6 million bucks dude. I won't ever pay in 1 million.

He started a business and made shit loads of money. So, he's smart, a smart business man. He took chances most people who work for the man never took and made it big time. So, he needs to be punished in some way for that? He gave 7 million to charity. I've never given more than 200 bucks.

Yeah, he could afford to pay more. Obama could too. But we can't start punishing success because our government is a failure when it comes to money.

Our tax system is a mess of shit. That needs to be fixed before we take every penny we can from a success story.

Only the middle-class should be "punished"... fukin' losers...




Sheeeit, mebee Mitt'll sell it all off for scrap while pulling evree dollar he can for him n' his contributors/investors, he's been good at that...

Hookbender — Apr 19, 2012[quote author=charger link=1328191390/50#68 date=1334771882][quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#66 date=1334747296]The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

You don't think it's a problem that you and I pay 25% and Romney pays 13-15%?  Even Obama pays 21%.  Is that "fair"?  Is it fairer that we, for whom everything costs more, should pay a higher tax percentage? Think about it, your rent and groceries are probably 35% of your pay at least.  For folks like Romney it's probably 1-5% of his income.  Buying a car is a major decision for you or I.  Romney "didn't make very much in speaking fees"--meaning he only made $370,000--in speaking fees! Not counting his "actual" income... $22 million in 2010.  How long do you think he has to worry about buying a car, or a TV, or clothes for his kids for school, or a house?  Not very fucking long.  Romney's got no idea what it means to be poor or middle class or struggle to make your check stretch.  He cannot relate to what most of America needs, but he can sure as shit relate to a bunch of rich dudes who need to preserve their tax breaks, incentives, and shelters.

I'd love to have lower taxes. Be great.

Have you ever thought we are kinda lucky to have millionaires? In 2 years he paid in 6 million bucks dude. I won't ever pay in 1 million.

He started a business and made shit loads of money. So, he's smart, a smart business man. He took chances most people who work for the man never took and made it big time. So, he needs to be punished in some way for that? He gave 7 million to charity. I've never given more than 200 bucks.

Yeah, he could afford to pay more. Obama could too. But we can't start punishing success because our government is a failure when it comes to money.

Our tax system is a mess of shit. That needs to be fixed before we take every penny we can from a success story.

Wow you have totally been brain washed.

We are punishing the rich by asking them to pay the SAME amount as everyone else?  Because they are NOT paying what you pay.  They have helped set up a system to pay a mere 5% in taxes while YOU get to pay over 30% of your money to taxes.  Seems to me YOU are being punished for being.....poor?

I know what the tax brackets SAY they should pay.  But after tax shelters and massaging of numbers they pay a fraction of the percentage you pay.  

To me it's criminal that you think a guy is taxed and pays more money into a system than you do and he's got you convinced that it's ruining his life paying more money in taxes than you.  In the mean time he's living in a house that you could put half your neighborhood in.  He's got cars that cost more than your house.  Probably has a boat that cost more than you will make in your life.  Eats the finest things and gets to party like a rock star every night if he wants and the money never ends.  And you think THAT guy is being punished?  Are you fucking kidding me?  

How dumb can you be?  Meanwhile there are people in this country living paycheck to paycheck thinking it would be great to have a little bit more money but the tax man took 1/3 of what you make.  1/3.  That rich bitch didn't shell out a 1/3 of his income and put a shit load of money in teh bank.

You guys don't understand.  We're LUCKY to have millionaires... it's not lucky for them that they are (it's just a burden) and of course there are no "millionaires" throughout the world...

Fenderbender — Apr 19, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#70 date=1334797441][quote author=charger link=1328191390/50#68 date=1334771882][quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#66 date=1334747296]The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

You don't think it's a problem that you and I pay 25% and Romney pays 13-15%?  Even Obama pays 21%.  Is that "fair"?  Is it fairer that we, for whom everything costs more, should pay a higher tax percentage? Think about it, your rent and groceries are probably 35% of your pay at least.  For folks like Romney it's probably 1-5% of his income.  Buying a car is a major decision for you or I.  Romney "didn't make very much in speaking fees"--meaning he only made $370,000--in speaking fees! Not counting his "actual" income... $22 million in 2010.  How long do you think he has to worry about buying a car, or a TV, or clothes for his kids for school, or a house?  Not very fucking long.  Romney's got no idea what it means to be poor or middle class or struggle to make your check stretch.  He cannot relate to what most of America needs, but he can sure as shit relate to a bunch of rich dudes who need to preserve their tax breaks, incentives, and shelters.

I'd love to have lower taxes. Be great.

Have you ever thought we are kinda lucky to have millionaires? In 2 years he paid in 6 million bucks dude. I won't ever pay in 1 million.

He started a business and made shit loads of money. So, he's smart, a smart business man. He took chances most people who work for the man never took and made it big time. So, he needs to be punished in some way for that? He gave 7 million to charity. I've never given more than 200 bucks.

Yeah, he could afford to pay more. Obama could too. But we can't start punishing success because our government is a failure when it comes to money.

Our tax system is a mess of shit. That needs to be fixed before we take every penny we can from a success story.

Wow you have totally been brain washed.

We are punishing the rich by asking them to pay the SAME amount as everyone else?  Because they are NOT paying what you pay.  They have helped set up a system to pay a mere 5% in taxes while YOU get to pay over 30% of your money to taxes.  Seems to me YOU are being punished for being.....poor?

I know what the tax brackets SAY they should pay.  But after tax shelters and massaging of numbers they pay a fraction of the percentage you pay.  

To me it's criminal that you think a guy is taxed and pays more money into a system than you do and he's got you convinced that it's ruining his life paying more money in taxes than you.  In the mean time he's living in a house that you could put half your neighborhood in.  He's got cars that cost more than your house.  Probably has a boat that cost more than you will make in your life.  Eats the finest things and gets to party like a rock star every night if he wants and the money never ends.  And you think THAT guy is being punished?  Are you fucking kidding me?  

How dumb can you be?  Meanwhile there are people in this country living paycheck to paycheck thinking it would be great to have a little bit more money but the tax man took 1/3 of what you make.  1/3.  That rich bitch didn't shell out a 1/3 of his income and put a shit load of money in teh bank.


You can look at it anyway you choose. If I worked my ass off establishing a business and it was successful....I made 22 million dollars and had to give 25% to 35% to a government that would piss that away on some bullshit in 1 day, I wouldn't like it very much. And if Romney can pay 5%, why did he pay 13 to 15%? And why did Obama pay 21%?

When did I say taxes were ruining anyones life? Don't put words in my mouth. You sound jealous that he has more shit than you. You could attempt the same the same thing he did or start your own business.

And why would someone live pay check to pay check? Do I need to list a few reasons for that? It has to do with choices those people made for the most part.

Now, Romney paid in roughly 3 million a year for the last 2 years. 3 million. What did he get out of that? Anything? He drove on the roads some. But I doubt he needed police help, fire dept help, government help, nothing at all. So all 3 million went to help the people who needed it or was pissed away by government.

You said it yourself, "they devised a system to pay 5%", which happens to be wrong, but anyway.......the tax system needs to be fixed where stuff like that can't happen. Close the loopholes and simplify the tax system. I just said in a previous post the tax system was shit and needed to be fixed.

I think it's time to drive out of that tunnel your in. ;D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  FOX, ya done good!


Look guys, Mitt doesn't get ANYTHING for the money he "donates" to the gov/country, OF COURSE he needs to put it offshore, i mean, they'd just waste it.  Wonder if he made a shitload while the country went down the tubes a few years ago... doesn't want to release those tax records yet...

Success just isn't success without preferential tax treatment!


How much tax money is going to be spent on Romney during this election?

http://youtu.be/EiHYcwdBlu0

If I made $22 million and had to pay $3 million taxes I'd laugh all the way to the fucking bank.  Yeah that's a lot of dough, but getting to keep $19 million doesn't seem like I'd be broke at all.

My wife and I aren't making THAT kind of money but we are upper middle class.  We've jumped up quite a bit in salary over the past few years.  If I get the job I want next month we will certianly jump up again.  I don't mind paying taxes.  I do mind paying the lions share when I don't make the lion's share.  

I have no sympathy for a rich person.  Pay your fucking taxes and pay it at teh same rate I am paying it at.  I could pay at a lower rate if rich folks stepped up and did their fair share.  

As a person of wealth it would be Romney's responsibility to help aide his country.  Paying his taxes like a good rich boy would certainly help him look credible to me.  Interestingly enough, that Obama guy shelled out a higher percentage of his income than Romney and yet made FAR less than Romney.  Obama is MORE American in my book.  

Hookbender — Apr 19, 2012[quote author=charger link=1328191390/50#68 date=1334771882][quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#66 date=1334747296]The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

He started a business and made shit loads of money. So, he's smart, a smart business man. He took chances most people who work for the man never took and made it big time. So, he needs to be punished in some way for that? He gave 7 million to charity. I've never given more than 200 bucks.

Yeah, he could afford to pay more. Obama could too. But we can't start punishing success because our government is a failure when it comes to money.

Our tax system is a mess of shit. That needs to be fixed before we take every penny we can from a success story.


Dude, you don't know the story at all.  How was he able to start a business and make tons of money?  By being a brilliant inventor?  No, because he was rich.  His dad was president of American Motors, and then governor.  He took seed money that he already had, because he was already rich, and invested it in a company that bought companies, took them private, fucked them all to hell by chopping jobs, and then took them back to the public "leaner".  How is that genius?  If you were born into millions you could do the same.

Yeah, he gave 7 million to "charity"--the Mormon church.  How that's a charity, you and I disagree on.  And btw, it was less than 10% of his income... Obama by contrast gave almost 20% to charity.  But I still fail to see how it's punishing him to make him pay a tax rate at least equivalent to what you or I pay.

Remember a few months ago when you were against the Bush tax cuts being renewed?  Man, you blow with the wind, don't you.

Hookbender — Apr 19, 2012Now, Romney paid in roughly 3 million a year for the last 2 years. 3 million. What did he get out of that? Anything? He drove on the roads some. But I doubt he needed police help, fire dept help, government help, nothing at all. So all 3 million went to help the people who needed it or was pissed away by government.

All the government does is police, fire, and government help e.g. welfare?

That's it?

So Romney in no way benefited from our society of laws, our economy, and our financial system?  A guy who made $22 million last year, probably lives in communities that are completely crime-free, used American roads, airspace, waterways, and our financial system to amazing advantage?  No benefits from our government?  

You sure feel bad for the rich guy.  Vote your conscience... if you feel it's tough for the rich, by all means vote for their guy so they can keep their tax rates 10% lower than yours.  Why should you care about your interests, or the interests of everyone who's not rich?  Obviously, those people are not smart, or driven, or as great of guys as those 1%ers... Let's face it, they're just better people than us and we should pay a higher tax percentage for being unedjimacated, slovenly rabble.

Fenderbender — Apr 19, 2012If I made $22 million and had to pay $3 million taxes I'd laugh all the way to the fucking bank.  Yeah that's a lot of dough, but getting to keep $19 million doesn't seem like I'd be broke at all.

My wife and I aren't making THAT kind of money but we are upper middle class.  We've jumped up quite a bit in salary over the past few years.  If I get the job I want next month we will certianly jump up again.  I don't mind paying taxes.  I do mind paying the lions share when I don't make the lion's share.  

I have no sympathy for a rich person.  Pay your fucking taxes and pay it at teh same rate I am paying it at.  I could pay at a lower rate if rich folks stepped up and did their fair share.  

As a person of wealth it would be Romney's responsibility to help aide his country.  Paying his taxes like a good rich boy would certainly help him look credible to me.  Interestingly enough, that Obama guy shelled out a higher percentage of his income than Romney and yet made FAR less than Romney.  Obama is MORE American in my book.  

A rich person isn't asking for your sympathy.

If Obama and Romney paid in nothing, I bet we'd see more benefit from that than them putting in the amount they do then if they give it to the government. I know that sounds exactly like a conservative but hey, it's what it is. Theirs no need in raising taxes and pouring in more money to the government that's spending is so bad they quit making a gaddamn budget. That has to be fixed before you start pointing to who pays the most and all that shit. If it's pissed away and shit, and we have a debt the size we have..... why the fuck give them another penny? Let them suffer a while. (government) Hell, most of congress are millionaires anyway. (50% or so) SO we have millionaires making poor mens decisions and we wonder why we have problems. See, that needs to be fixed as well. How the fuck can we talk about taxes objectively when we have fucking crap for a government?

Being "American", in your opinion, equates to who pays in the most money in taxes so it can be thrown away on stuff like studying shit on a shit farm in Ohio? Why don't you pay in 50%, maybe you'll make the news. Thats more plain stupid than anything "American".

charger — Apr 19, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#70 date=1334797441][quote author=charger link=1328191390/50#68 date=1334771882][quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/50#66 date=1334747296]The problem with tax money isn't who pays it. It's what the government does with the money coming in thats the problem. All this talk about lowering and raising taxes is the political hollywood portion of politics. Until we get government spending under control, which will probably never happen, we will continue to have problems.

He started a business and made shit loads of money. So, he's smart, a smart business man. He took chances most people who work for the man never took and made it big time. So, he needs to be punished in some way for that? He gave 7 million to charity. I've never given more than 200 bucks.

Yeah, he could afford to pay more. Obama could too. But we can't start punishing success because our government is a failure when it comes to money.

Our tax system is a mess of shit. That needs to be fixed before we take every penny we can from a success story.


Dude, you don't know the story at all.  How was he able to start a business and make tons of money?  By being a brilliant inventor?  No, because he was rich.  His dad was president of American Motors, and then governor.  He took seed money that he already had, because he was already rich, and invested it in a company that bought companies, took them private, fucked them all to hell by chopping jobs, and then took them back to the public "leaner".  How is that genius?  If you were born into millions you could do the same.

Yeah, he gave 7 million to "charity"--the Mormon church.  How that's a charity, you and I disagree on.  And btw, it was less than 10% of his income... Obama by contrast gave almost 20% to charity.  But I still fail to see how it's punishing him to make him pay a tax rate at least equivalent to what you or I pay.

Remember a few months ago when you were against the Bush tax cuts being renewed?  Man, you blow with the wind, don't you.


I knew you'd bring up that rich guys Daddy shit eventually. From everything I've read, the only benefit he got from his parents was a damn good education. Other than that, he went in a different direction from his Dad and made damn good money. Is that not the American dream? His Dad put him through college and his son took full advantage of it and used the education to be a successful business man. And you bitch about that? Shut up. You can't be serious.

No, I don't blow at all. ;D I puff. ;D

Yes. I change my mind. And in a few months, things have changed, and now I'm kinda hesitant to stay with that theory. As the circumstances change, one is subject to change his opinion as well. Especially concerning the economy. And you have a problem with that to I guess?

Hookbender — Apr 20, 2012[quote author=Fenderbender link=1328191390/75#76 date=1334857357]If I made $22 million and had to pay $3 million taxes I'd laugh all the way to the fucking bank.  Yeah that's a lot of dough, but getting to keep $19 million doesn't seem like I'd be broke at all.

My wife and I aren't making THAT kind of money but we are upper middle class.  We've jumped up quite a bit in salary over the past few years.  If I get the job I want next month we will certianly jump up again.  I don't mind paying taxes.  I do mind paying the lions share when I don't make the lion's share.  

I have no sympathy for a rich person.  Pay your fucking taxes and pay it at teh same rate I am paying it at.  I could pay at a lower rate if rich folks stepped up and did their fair share.  

As a person of wealth it would be Romney's responsibility to help aide his country.  Paying his taxes like a good rich boy would certainly help him look credible to me.  Interestingly enough, that Obama guy shelled out a higher percentage of his income than Romney and yet made FAR less than Romney.  Obama is MORE American in my book.  

A rich person isn't asking for your sympathy.

If Obama and Romney paid in nothing, I bet we'd see more benefit from that than them putting in the amount they do then if they give it to the government. I know that sounds exactly like a conservative but hey, it's what it is. Theirs no need in raising taxes and pouring in more money to the government that's spending is so bad they quit making a gaddamn budget. That has to be fixed before you start pointing to who pays the most and all that shit. If it's pissed away and shit, and we have a debt the size we have..... why the fuck give them another penny? Let them suffer a while. (government) Hell, most of congress are millionaires anyway. (50% or so) SO we have millionaires making poor mens decisions and we wonder why we have problems. See, that needs to be fixed as well. How the fuck can we talk about taxes objectively when we have fucking crap for a government?

Being "American", in your opinion, equates to who pays in the most money in taxes so it can be thrown away on stuff like studying shit on a shit farm in Ohio? Why don't you pay in 50%, maybe you'll make the news. Thats more plain stupid than anything "American".

Taxes aren't bad thing.  It's as if you know nothing about taxes.  It's unamerican to be a millionaire and hide your money to protect a mere 10- 20 percent of it while lesser people that make less money pay a higher tax percentage.

You act like these poor millionaires have life so rough.  Yet you are content to take it right in the at tax time.   You are a sheep.

Sheep?  Did I hear something about sheep?  No?  Hmm... False alarm...

Right now, taxes are bad. Their bad because our government isn't efficient or wise enough to spend the money for the purposes intended. Their bad because they aren't paid fairly across the board as you have pointed out. Their bad because their are many ways to avoid paying as you've also pointed out. The list goes on and on.

I don't come close to thinking rich folk have it bad and never said that. Your just full of crap. I'm just saying if our tax money is wasted on bullshit and we're giving billions to other countries, bailing out private businesses and banks, etc, making everyone pay the same % in taxes ain't gonna do much good. Your putting the cart before the horse. Regardless who pays what for taxes it's still be pissed away by the government. Government spending needs to be fixed first, including the government laying out a damn budget like we all have to do, then work on taxes and who pays what.

There are no sheep in this discussion. Just a little common sense.  

Hookbender — Apr 20, 2012I knew you'd bring up that rich guys Daddy shit eventually. From everything I've read, the only benefit he got from his parents was a damn good education.

And connection to daddy's wealthy friends, and the Romney name, and access to the power structure through that expensive education... You don't think very deeply or completely, do you?

Other than that, he went in a different direction from his Dad and made damn good money. Is that not the American dream?

To some. But most people have the respect not to make their money fucking over literally THOUSANDS of people and destroying American companies.

His Dad put him through college and his son took full advantage of it and used the education to be a successful business man. And you bitch about that? Shut up. You can't be serious.

Thanks, McEnroe. And your logic is about as solid as McEnroe's when he was on a tirade...

Romney started on third and thinks he hit a home run when someone else hit a base hit to knock him in. His entire perspective of the American experience comes from that because he's never known or experienced anything different. He has no understanding or sympathy for the plight of people born into poverty (and the numbers of kids facing that is RAPIDLY growing with the wealth disparity Romney-esque policies have given this country). A man like that can't effectively lead this country.

Until I was 20 years old and started volunteering for the poor, I really didn't understand what it was like to be that far down the economic scale. I was raised in a middle-class (borderline upper-middle) home. My dad never made six figures. EVER. And he was a national manager of distribution for a very famous lighting company. But I didn't want for things. Our country used to be that way. My dad didn't start off paralyzed by college debt (because it's nearly impossible to get an affordable college education anymore because of budget cuts and greed). When I brought food and supplies to those poor families in rural Pennsylvania, it changed me FOREVER...because it showed me that these are not necessarily helpless people, but they also don't have access to the advantages that would help pull them out of their plight. And it's worse when the culture of poverty is fundamentally against having a better life, and that's what we've bred in our trailers and inner cities. The rise in anti-intellectualism, fatalistic negativity, and junk thinking in this country just makes all that worse. And as Americans continue to lose opportunities for decent-paying jobs and as we allow the banks to keep fleecing our entire economy, there's no hope of anything getting better no matter who is in charge.

But in 2012, Obama is a better choice than Romney in every way. The only reasons to vote for Romney are:
1. If you are a very rich person.
2. You want the very rich to further solidify their position as the owners of our society.
3. You're a racist and hate the black president.
4. You're ignorant of the facts of what President Obama has actually done as president.
5. You believe in the imaginary Obama pushed by the racist and ignorant (and politically cynical on the right).

Of course, you can choose to go back to things that don't work and put us in this mess, or you can choose to continue things that kind of work when they have the balls to actually implement them and stop pandering to the idiots who believe in the things that don't work.

I'm excited to see what a second Obama term would bring, if only because he doesn't have to worry about re-election. He can actually grow a pair instead of being a pandering pussy.

But he probably won't. The sad part is, Romney's still not a better choice.
Tripper

Hookbender — Apr 21, 2012Right now, taxes are bad. Their bad because our government isn't efficient or wise enough to spend the money for the purposes intended. Their bad because they aren't paid fairly across the board as you have pointed out. Their bad because their are many ways to avoid paying as you've also pointed out. The list goes on and on.

It's not wisdom or efficiency that's the problem. It's MONEY IN POLITICS. It's all bought. It was much worse under Bush - at least Obama tried to get some competent people in there. The GSA bullshit aside, most other agencies are functioning much better if the Republicans bothered to confirm Obama's appointees (which they mostly haven't).

I don't come close to thinking rich folk have it bad and never said that. Your just full of crap. I'm just saying if our tax money is wasted on bullshit and we're giving billions to other countries, bailing out private businesses and banks, etc, making everyone pay the same % in taxes ain't gonna do much good. Your putting the cart before the horse. Regardless who pays what for taxes it's still be pissed away by the government. Government spending needs to be fixed first, including the government laying out a damn budget like we all have to do, then work on taxes and who pays what.

No, taxes need to be restored so there's more money coming in, and THEN we deal with spending. Because spending actually drives economic recovery. This is a proven fact, no matter what liars on the right want to claim. Evidence is a bitch.

There are no sheep in this discussion. Just a little common sense.  

Common not in the sense of it being special, maybe. A simple and superficial understanding drives your "common sense".

We get the money out of politics, raise taxes appropriately, then we demand efficiency and (to borrow a Christian Fundy code word) proper stewardship of the money and get good people to run things.

Or we perish from the Earth. ;)
Tripper

Tripper — Apr 21, 2012[quote author=Hookbender link=1328191390/75#81 date=1334964177]I knew you'd bring up that rich guys Daddy shit eventually. From everything I've read, the only benefit he got from his parents was a damn good education.

And connection to daddy's wealthy friends, and the Romney name, and access to the power structure through that expensive education... You don't think very deeply or completely, do you?

Other than that, he went in a different direction from his Dad and made damn good money. Is that not the American dream?

To some. But most people have the respect not to make their money fucking over literally THOUSANDS of people and destroying American companies.

His Dad put him through college and his son took full advantage of it and used the education to be a successful business man. And you bitch about that? Shut up. You can't be serious.

Thanks, McEnroe. And your logic is about as solid as McEnroe's when he was on a tirade...

Romney started on third and thinks he hit a home run when someone else hit a base hit to knock him in. His entire perspective of the American experience comes from that because he's never known or experienced anything different. He has no understanding or sympathy for the plight of people born into poverty (and the numbers of kids facing that is RAPIDLY growing with the wealth disparity Romney-esque policies have given this country). A man like that can't effectively lead this country.

Until I was 20 years old and started volunteering for the poor, I really didn't understand what it was like to be that far down the economic scale. I was raised in a middle-class (borderline upper-middle) home. My dad never made six figures. EVER. And he was a national manager of distribution for a very famous lighting company. But I didn't want for things. Our country used to be that way. My dad didn't start off paralyzed by college debt (because it's nearly impossible to get an affordable college education anymore because of budget cuts and greed). When I brought food and supplies to those poor families in rural Pennsylvania, it changed me FOREVER...because it showed me that these are not necessarily helpless people, but they also don't have access to the advantages that would help pull them out of their plight. And it's worse when the culture of poverty is fundamentally against having a better life, and that's what we've bred in our trailers and inner cities. The rise in anti-intellectualism, fatalistic negativity, and junk thinking in this country just makes all that worse. And as Americans continue to lose opportunities for decent-paying jobs and as we allow the banks to keep fleecing our entire economy, there's no hope of anything getting better no matter who is in charge.

But in 2012, Obama is a better choice than Romney in every way. The only reasons to vote for Romney are:
1. If you are a very rich person.
2. You want the very rich to further solidify their position as the owners of our society.
3. You're a racist and hate the black president.
4. You're ignorant of the facts of what President Obama has actually done as president.
5. You believe in the imaginary Obama pushed by the racist and ignorant (and politically cynical on the right).

Of course, you can choose to go back to things that don't work and put us in this mess, or you can choose to continue things that kind of work when they have the balls to actually implement them and stop pandering to the idiots who believe in the things that don't work.

I'm excited to see what a second Obama term would bring, if only because he doesn't have to worry about re-election. He can actually grow a pair instead of being a pandering pussy.

But he probably won't. The sad part is, Romney's still not a better choice.
Tripper

Romney still took a chance. If he didn't succeed, we wouldn't know who the fuck he was, probably. It's not his fault that he didn't have to work 4 jobs to get through college. He was very lucky in that respect. His dad worked his butt of and did well. Gonna complain about that to? Come on, your barely above water with this crap. And if he destroyed companies legally, what are you complaining about? Why complain about him instead of the people who have the power to change the laws where that can't happen? Cart before the horse again.

Hell your as smart as god if you know what sympathies Romney has and to what he credits those sympathies to.

You know, I never heard you complain about this shit when the richest of all were running for president. (Kerry)

Choose to go back to what put us in this mess? Didn't Obama try the same thing to fix this mess as what got us in it to start with? He borrowed 800 billion dollars to spend money on the economy, so to speak, with no plan on how to pay it back and without a budget to even start a plan. What makes you think that Romney would do exactly as Bush and Clinton did?

How can you be excited about a 2nd Obama term? He did little he said he'd do in the first term. Who knows what he'll do in his 2nd term. He'll have a hard time doing anything unless he gets about a 50% increase in the s.  

Reagan and Bush had record numbers coming in and they lowered taxes on the rich. That's didn't get us very far in the long run.

More money coming in equals more money pissed away on shit, that's all. I'll just have to disagree with you on that one.

Take a look at how Reagan and Bush reduced taxes on the rich...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Federal_Debt_1901-2010.png







I don't think anyone cares that Mitt is rich.  The fact that he pays a much smaller tax percentage than the average Joe and enjoys all of the advantages that this country brings has no possible justification.

Hook, what are Romney's stances?

BINGEWOOD — Apr 22, 2012Take a look at how Reagan and Bush reduced taxes on the rich...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Federal_Debt_1901-2010.png







I don't think anyone cares that Mitt is rich.  The fact that he pays a much smaller tax percentage than the average Joe and enjoys all of the advantages that this country brings has no possible justification.

Well, the fact that he, in one year, probably pays more taxes than the average 8 Joes will in a lifetime may help your feelings some.

It just doesn't.  How does it help you?

Then you aren't in touch with reality.

If you only look at percentages and nothing else, I agree. I also would agree that Romney should be required to pay more in taxes. But the problems you'd try to fix by bringing in money from the rich would be pissed away by government just like the 13 to 15% he paid in will and was. So, you up the taxes the few rich pay in and cut some off the rest of us pay and you'd probably bring in less money anyway. So what's the point of your argument?

The problems are way more complex than making a few rich people pay more taxes. What's being done with what's coming in now is where you'll find the root of the problem. That's where we need to start. I read where Obama was spending 40 billion dollars on naval ships. Excuse me, where is this 40 billion dollars? Does anyone know the U.S. is fucking broke? Anyone check the debt lately? Probably not since we don't even have a damn budget.

Defund (through tax cuts) for ten years while spending massively on wars and homeland security then let a small group of people extract trillions from the economic system while firing huge amounts of American workers as well as switch major manufacturing to a new larger group of people who need jobs to buy from the company store and who have govz willing to pimp da peeps and their environment and wonder why the there's a debt and sluggish economy.   Oh, and create trillions of dollars out of thin air to trade a corrupt banking system for things which have been made into shit five times over (and profited from as many times as well) and wonder what's up with housing market.  Talk about how tax money will only be wasted while the only cutting of spending ideas I keep hearing from the right (and at times the mods as well) are we need to cut or get rid of Social Security and Medicare while kicking even bigger tax cuts to the 1% and MEGA cuts for the .0001%, the trick to this one is to convince the oldsters (still need their votes) to do this to their kids and grandkids, have them work til 75 and get less.  The boomers knew they swell the ranks forevz', s'why they're called boomers.  They did nothing to prepare for themselves.  They will ask you to do the paying... and send out a lil boy to tell ya da bad news with a smile.

Hey Hook, you sound a lot like Stossel.  

Hookbender — Apr 22, 2012Romney still took a chance. If he didn't succeed, we wouldn't know who the fuck he was, probably. It's not his fault that he didn't have to work 4 jobs to get through college. He was very lucky in that respect.

Do you even pay attention to the things he says? Romney has NO UNDERSTANDING of the plight of 75% of this country, at least. How is he equipped to make appropriate decisions as a leader? Please enlighten me.

His dad worked his butt of and did well. Gonna complain about that to? Come on, your barely above water with this crap.

The only way you can think there's something deficient about what I wrote is if you're ignoring the things Romney says. And why would I criticize his dad? I maintain Romney didn't really have to work hard to succeed. I think he did, and I give him credit for that, but he did it in a morally bankrupt fashion.

And if he destroyed companies legally, what are you complaining about? Why complain about him instead of the people who have the power to change the laws where that can't happen? Cart before the horse again.

Just because there isn't a law against it doesn't make it right. Talk about cart before the horse. And do you even bother to consider that I'm complaining about ALL OF IT? But this criticism is restricted to the topic at hand, which is Mitt Romney. Nice deflection. Your logic is fucked.

Hell your as smart as god if you know what sympathies Romney has and to what he credits those sympathies to.

I just know what he's said, how he's characterized the middle class and poor in this country, and it's clear he has no fucking clue what he's talking about.

You know, I never heard you complain about this shit when the richest of all were running for president. (Kerry)

Of course you didn't hear it. You should have read it, since we haven't talked about it. I repeatedly said Kerry was out of touch, and that that was one of his major flaws. But the economy wasn't fucked beyond reason in 2004...and none of us really knew what was happening on Wall Street. Another bullshit criticism. You have more?

Choose to go back to what put us in this mess? Didn't Obama try the same thing to fix this mess as what got us in it to start with?

You really don't understand what caused this mess, do you?

He borrowed 800 billion dollars to spend money on the economy, so to speak, with no plan on how to pay it back and without a budget to even start a plan.

And it was partially successful and should have been more extensive so it would have been truly successful. But no way was that happening with the GOP filibustering everything...

What makes you think that Romney would do exactly as Bush and Clinton did?

I never said he'd do exactly what they did. I said it'd be worse. Because his ideas are the same as the rest of the Republidrone ignoramuses who think lowering taxes increases tax revenue, stimulates the economy, and levels the playing field. It does precisely the opposite on all three.

How can you be excited about a 2nd Obama term? He did little he said he'd do in the first term. Who knows what he'll do in his 2nd term. He'll have a hard time doing anything unless he gets about a 50% increase in the s.

I'm not excited about Obama, I'm excited to see what would happen. FACT: He did a lot he said he'd do in his first term, and that's been documented before (apparently you didn't bother to read the non-partisan links more than one of us posted...typical). He didn't do some other stuff, for sure, and we've all criticized that. He's gone back on certain things he promised, too. Not sure if it was for political expedience or because of the obstructionists in the GOP, but it was a major disappointment.

But again, I'll gladly have President Disappointment over President Idiot any day.
Tripper

BINGEWOOD — Apr 22, 2012Hey Hook, you sound a lot like Stossel.  

And he possesses the same understanding of the function of progressive taxation and economics as that dunderhead, too.
Tripper

Stossel understands it.  He's just a slimy, whinee, smiling shill who's compensated nicely for the service.