The Watering Hole

Hey, mind if I whine about my shitty 250k a year, when 10% of the country doesn't even have a job?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kpzaEp0IVw4J:truthonthemarket.com/2010/09/15/we-are-the-super-rich/%20site:truthonthemarket.com/%20Xxxx%20Xxxxxxxxx&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

And some advice for how he can remedy his dire situation:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704129204575506051919012596.html

I once had to pay more in taxes than all of my roommates made combined.  I stopped doing my own taxes back in the early '80's and have ALWAYS had a CPA-type do them because I always got back more with their help then I would have without it (making their cost - whatever it was - irrelevant).  Right now, I'd love to have the problems that guy has, however, I still don't think the Government is more qualified to spend my money than I am.  They should take enough to keep the basic areas functioning smoothly (i.e., defense, judicial, infrastructure - like roads, emergency aid, education), but the waste has got to go.

One last thing...  Success should NEVER be punished.  There should be something like a flat tax implemented on all earnings with most, if not all, "loopholes" closed.  That way the poorest people pay very little and the richest still pay a lot (only each pays their share).  People need to STOP relying on the Government for handouts (which should not be confused with emergency aid) and work to improve themselves while living within their means (whatever that level may be).  There should be incentives to better yourself - not penalties.

I agree with Craig.

Dude, the whole time I lived with housemates, once I got out of college and started working in tech, I paid more than the rest of my household combined in taxes every year.  You know why?  Because I made a shitload more money.  I was making 60k a year, had one housemate making in the low 30s, one making in the 20s, and one making fucking gig money playing jazz bass.  I never once felt bad about paying more taxes. To whine about that would be insulting.  At the end of the day, I could buy a lot more of what I wanted, go out for dinner when I wanted a lot more often, drive a nicer car, etc..  My housemates were scraping and I was flush.  

There is an incentive to better yourself.  It's called getting fucking rich.  End of story.  I have absolutely no sympathy for the 5% of the country that makes a million dollars a year or more.  Nor should you.  To hear them lament a 4% increase in their taxes on their ludicrous salaries makes me hope there is a hell.  

A flat tax is laughable... it's punitive to the poorest people in the country.  Tax everyone at 30%.  To someone making a million a year, that's chump change.  To someone making 30k a year, that's rent.

Maybe, while we're at it, we can humiliate them a little, too. Although the fact that the poor often vote against their own interests, and for the interests of rich people, is probably humiliation enough in itself.

I hear a lot about the "penalties" people get for getting rich, and how it prevents them from earning money.  I just have to ask...
HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU?

The last time there was a rich guy who sat back and said, "fuck, I could make another million, but I might have to pay 100,000 more in taxes... I better not do that," that rich guy was a fucking IDIOT, and not only that but he never existed, he's a fucking urban myth created by other rich guys so they can have something to whine about, when they are drinking their Kristal out of their pre-war German crystal glasses, and admiring their Monets.  

The fact that they have been able to SELL this idea to the other 90% of the country who will never crack $150k--that "everyone can get rich, and we want all you poor fucking slobs to have something to aspire to"--is un-fucking-believable.  It's as if they kicked you in the mouth, then pissed on you, then told you that a supermodel just kissed you, and then showered you with ambrosia of the gods, and you believed it.

Anyone who knows the most basic principles of how our economic system works knows that there is next to zero vertical movement.  The rich will stay rich, and the middle class and poor will stay middle class and poor, and most of us-90%+--will be in that latter category.  And the rich will just get richer.  In the last 30 years, the top 20% in this country has seen their AFTER TAX income increase by 176%.  And the bottom 20%--6% in 30 years.  

If you believe the rich are punished for success in this country, you might as well believe in fairies, a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, and that the sun revolves around the earth.  They are equally idiotic and unprovable fairy tales.  

World's tiniest violin shit.

Everyone can get rich is how you get dopes to vote against their class...a bit like heaven.



"They should take enough to keep the basic areas functioning smoothly (i.e., defense, judicial, infrastructure - like roads, emergency aid, education)"

These, and many others, aren't functioning smoothly.

And do you know why Mr. Smart guy? Because government can't spend money smartly. That's why. And that's a damn good reason not to let government have more. They are irresponsible and show it everyday.

Glad you made that so important point. ::)

Think they'll borrow it if they can't get it through taxes?


What do you think about the taxes EXXON and GE pay, too much or too little?


Hook, are you wealthy?

I like how Charger can't read.

Craig, is your success being punished?  

Did your taxes go up last year?

Name me one example of a situation in which a rich guy has ANY incentive not to make more money, Craig.

It's just insulting to poor people to talk like that.

Rich people have three things going for them:
1) they are rich
2) they are louder whiners than everyone who is not rich
3) all the poor slobs out there think they are going to get rich too, so they are more likely to vote and care about rich people's interests than their own.

People cry for the rich for the same reason they buy lottery tickets.  Both equally likely and hopeful reasons.

I'm sorry I posted - I thought I was dealing with rational people not fucked up people who don't read and only push their own agendas.  I'll leave you guys to your rantings.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What agenda?

Name me one example of a situation in which a rich guy has ANY incentive not to make more money

Well playing devils advocate.

The extremely wealthy will always have and incentive to make more money- if avoiding tax is more profitable than just making more money in an economically useful way (ie. like selling more stuff) - they will concentrate on tax avoidance.

The working rich - i.e. those on the $250k incomes and above.

It is dependent on the marginal rate of tax - but  someone on  250K and in line for a 25% pay rise - they might forgo the pay rise in favour of  another form of compensation.
for example - a 4 day week for 250K.

A moderately successful but not hugely ambitious small business guy might think kicking back a bit and enjoying what he has already is a better option than taking on the extra grief in time and risk involved in a 25% incremental growth to his business and his income.

I don't bleed hearts for these people - but abrupt marginal tax rate hikes definitely do distort how people behave at the arbitrary point they kick in.

If not a flat rate tax - how about a rate that varies smoothly as a function of income.

CraigBert — Sep 27, 2010I'm sorry I posted - I thought I was dealing with rational people not fucked up people who don't read and only push their own agendas.  I'll leave you guys to your rantings.

craig, the secret is to type up your responses, preview them so you know what it would have looked like and then delete it.

I do it all the time. :)

except this time... damn!!  :D

fingers — Sep 27, 2010If not a flat rate tax - how about a rate that varies smoothly as a function of income.

With or without "loopholes"?

fingers — Sep 27, 2010A moderately successful but not hugely ambitious small business guy might think kicking back a bit and enjoying what he has already is a better option than taking on the extra grief in time and risk involved in a 25% incremental growth to his business and his income.

Different people have different definitions of success.  For some it's money...for some it's time or something else entirely.

Ok, Craig, how much waste is there in our budget.  I ask this because I recently read an article where I discovered that the vast majority of the public believes that 50% of government spending is waste.  Which, if true, would be truly shocking... however, it's of course nowhere near that.  The truth is that there are massive liabilities and obligations in the budget, and not a lot of room for cuts.

BINGEWOOD — Sep 27, 2010[quote author=fingers link=1285488947/0#13 date=1285617339]A moderately successful but not hugely ambitious small business guy might think kicking back a bit and enjoying what he has already is a better option than taking on the extra grief in time and risk involved in a 25% incremental growth to his business and his income.

Different people have different definitions of success.  For some it's money...for some it's time or something else entirely.


Absolutely, I'm not knocking the decision

Just saying how marginal tax rates can influence it.

BINGEWOOD — Sep 27, 2010[quote author=fingers link=1285488947/0#13 date=1285617339]If not a flat rate tax - how about a rate that varies smoothly as a function of income.

With or without "loopholes"?


Well it would present less loopholes than the current scheme of things, there would be no arbritary points where the tax regime changes dramatically, so far less incentive to do anything about it.

"Just saying how marginal tax rates can influence it. "


I hear ya, especially when you just cross the line.

BINGEWOOD — Sep 27, 2010HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What agenda?

What - You didn't get your copy of the agenda :)

Is the most recent one on goldenrod?

I agree that we should be on a sliding scale.  

I don't, however, agree that there is anything punitive at all about our tax structure.  We pay incredibly low taxes throughout the tax range, and the rich are doing better now than they have in a long, long time.  I just think it's a complete crock to say there is any disincentive to make money here.  Like it's somehow awesome to be paying minimal taxes and making $40k a year, and really tough for those who "work so hard" to make their $300k.  How hard do you think a Wall Street banker works?  

Do you think someone making $250k a year is riding around the lake all year while someone else makes money for them? What about the risk factor a business man takes to make $400k a year? The stress he's under constantly? Especially with Mr. Spend taking so long to steady the ship a bit, not fix the ship, just steady it a bit. $300k a year isn't necessarily rich.

How hard do you think a Wall Street banker works?

Hookbender — Sep 28, 2010Do you think someone making $250k a year is riding around the lake all year while someone else makes money for them? What about the risk factor a business man takes to make $400k a year? The stress he's under constantly? Especially with Mr. Spend taking so long to steady the ship a bit, not fix the ship, just steady it a bit. $300k a year isn't necessarily rich.

How hard do you think a Wall Street banker works?

Before they blew a hole in the ship or after they got bonuses for doing it?

Hookbender — Sep 28, 2010Do you think someone making $250k a year is riding around the lake all year while someone else makes money for them? What about the risk factor a business man takes to make $400k a year? The stress he's under constantly? Especially with Mr. Spend taking so long to steady the ship a bit, not fix the ship, just steady it a bit. $300k a year isn't necessarily rich.

How hard do you think a Wall Street banker works?

I don 't know.  How hard is it to sit around and dream up a new way to screw the American people? Then put that plan into effect?  Then bring the economy to its knees?  All the while, collecting 6 -- no 7-figure bonuses every year?  Then wait around for the taxpayers to bail you out, so you can still have your job, and then you can go right back to earning 6 or 7 figures?  

Gee, sounds tough.

There was no "risk factor" for the guys who created CDOs.  They didn't invest their money.  They invested someone else's money.  If the CDO collapsed under the weight of the crappy assets in it, did they have to pay for it?  No--they either washed their hands of it and moved on to the next crappy set of subprime shit, or they made money.  They got rewarded for failure.  Because they both created the instruments to make shitloads of money, then took INSURANCE that if it did fail, they'd make money too.  And they didn't go to jail.  Oh, maybe one or two of their bosses did.  But they didn't.  They went back to work.  And you talk about Mr Steady hand not righting the ship?  The ship's been right on Wall Street for over a year now.  Sure, normal slobs can't get a fucking job.  But if you paid attention to any of my posts over the past 6 months, you might have noticed that Wall Street is KILLING IT right now.  The NYSE blue chips are headed for their best September since 1939!  In fact, the financial services industry is headed for its second quarter of record profits in a row.  Thank god someone out there is playing a violin for them, so no one notices how they are right back at it, rich as fuck, employed as well, and somehow they still manage to make us feel sorry for them.

You already forgot what happened 2 years ago.  That weed is really killing your short term memory.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/15/AR2008121503561.html

Keep whining about Obama giving health insurance to poor people, while you laud the hard-working criminals who put us in this position.  Keep drinking the tea-flavored Kool-Aid.  Who gives a shit about the truth.  When your heroes are criminals, I can only feel like if you hate Obama, my hope that he succeeds is well justified.

Ask Obama how hard it is to screw the American people. And some of the criminals are Obama's advisors now.

Obama would say it is very  easy - look how an idiot like Bush could royally shaft you all.

Bush's cunning plan  -  
borrow a shit load of money in your name  to give you tax cuts to buy your votes.

Sure it is easy as enough people are dumb enough to fall for that.

Hook - I am a real nice guy - I am going to give you $100k
I took out a $110k mortgage in your name backed by your house.

Would you fall for that ?

Well you did effectively that with Bush

$300k a year isn't necessarily rich.

In 2006, there were approximately 116,011,000 households in the United States. 1.93% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $250,000.

Better than the top 1.93

What percentage does it take to be rich?

Hookbender — Sep 28, 2010Ask Obama how hard it is to screw the American people. And some of the criminals are Obama's advisors now.

Do Obama's policy decisions make you think he's screwing the American people?

How? By giving everyone access to health insurance (and in the process, actually lowering our governmental spending on healthcare)?  Bad, bad, Obama.
By getting our combat troops out of Iraq?  Evil, evil Obama.
By continuing to push for low taxes for everyone expect the top 2% of earners?  Evil, bad man.
By appointing a killer consumer advocate to head up the new Consumer Protection Agency?  You nasty, nasty man.
Sure, we can disagree on GM, but every president makes choices that you wouldn't.  GM cost $50 billion, and we'll get that or more back after the company goes IPO... Iraq 750 billion. Are Iraqis are more important to you than American jobs...--say, 15x more important? Cuz you voted for the guy who authorized THAT payment... two years after he did it.  There's a word with a greek root for this... what is it... hypo--hypochondriac? hypocalamitous? hypodermic?  

fingers — Sep 28, 2010Obama would say it is very  easy - look how an idiot like Bush could royally shaft you all.

Bush's cunning plan  -  
borrow a shit load of money in your name  to give you tax cuts to buy your votes.

Sure it is easy as enough people are dumb enough to fall for that.

Hook - I am a real nice guy - I am going to give you $100k
I took out a $110k mortgage in your name backed by your house.

Would you fall for that ?

Well you did effectively that with Bush

Obama's doing the same thing. He just calls it like it is. Plain ole borrowing and spending. He spends our money the way he wants to, Bush gave it to us to spend ourselves. The end result is the same, debt.

charger — Sep 28, 2010[quote author=Hookbender link=1285488947/25#27 date=1285674828]Ask Obama how hard it is to screw the American people. And some of the criminals are Obama's advisors now.

Do Obama's policy decisions make you think he's screwing the American people?

How? By giving everyone access to health insurance (and in the process, actually lowering our governmental spending on healthcare)?  Bad, bad, Obama.
By getting our combat troops out of Iraq?  Evil, evil Obama.
By continuing to push for low taxes for everyone expect the top 2% of earners?  Evil, bad man.
By appointing a killer consumer advocate to head up the new Consumer Protection Agency?  You nasty, nasty man.
Sure, we can disagree on GM, but every president makes choices that you wouldn't.  GM cost $50 billion, and we'll get that or more back after the company goes IPO... Iraq 750 billion. Are Iraqis are more important to you than American jobs...--say, 15x more important? Cuz you voted for the guy who authorized THAT payment... two years after he did it.  There's a word with a greek root for this... what is it... hypo--hypochondriac? hypocalamitous? hypodermic?  

So the criminals make good decisions when Obama is President, and bad decisions when Bush is President? Hey, cool.

pickmaster60 — Sep 28, 2010$300k a year isn't necessarily rich.

In 2006, there were approximately 116,011,000 households in the United States. 1.93% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $250,000.

Better than the top 1.93

What percentage does it take to be rich?

Depends I guess. I'd call 4 or 500k rich. I'm not worried or concerned about the percentage of people who are considered rich. I'm sure you'll love that comment, Spongebob. I'm not for punishing hard work that happens to come with extreme risk and a necessity for making good decisions. If their business fails, they lose everything they have. If the people that own the company I work for happens to fail, I just find another place to work. I have no problem with the owner making damn good money. He deserves it. I like the owner and I'm treated well. I'm not jealous of him making lots of money and I don't feel he should be punished for it. He'll pay much in taxes.

I'm not for punishing hard work that happens to come with extreme risk and a necessity for making good decisions. If their business fails, they lose everything they have.

Paying taxes is not a punishment from the government for working hard.
That line of argument assumes our government wants people to fail.
Lower revenue for them.

extreme risk?  bah!

It's just money.

Besides I can almost be sure they are a corporation. They won't lose everything they have.

Kinda like Dick Fuld. Still rolling in it.

It's also hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way

Hookbender — Sep 29, 2010[quote author=fingers link=1285488947/25#28 date=1285677608]Obama would say it is very  easy - look how an idiot like Bush could royally shaft you all.

Bush's cunning plan  -  
borrow a shit load of money in your name  to give you tax cuts to buy your votes.

Sure it is easy as enough people are dumb enough to fall for that.

Hook - I am a real nice guy - I am going to give you $100k
I took out a $110k mortgage in your name backed by your house.

Would you fall for that ?

Well you did effectively that with Bush

He spends our money the way he wants to, Bush gave it to us to spend ourselves. The end result is the same, debt.


$1.1 trillion he gave to us to spend ourselves.
http://www.costofwar.com/

Use your fucking brain already, please.

Hookbender — Sep 29, 2010[quote author=charger link=1285488947/25#30 date=1285696734][quote author=Hookbender link=1285488947/25#27 date=1285674828]Ask Obama how hard it is to screw the American people. And some of the criminals are Obama's advisors now.

Do Obama's policy decisions make you think he's screwing the American people?

How? By giving everyone access to health insurance (and in the process, actually lowering our governmental spending on healthcare)?  Bad, bad, Obama.
By getting our combat troops out of Iraq?  Evil, evil Obama.
By continuing to push for low taxes for everyone expect the top 2% of earners?  Evil, bad man.
By appointing a killer consumer advocate to head up the new Consumer Protection Agency?  You nasty, nasty man.
Sure, we can disagree on GM, but every president makes choices that you wouldn't.  GM cost $50 billion, and we'll get that or more back after the company goes IPO... Iraq 750 billion. Are Iraqis are more important to you than American jobs...--say, 15x more important? Cuz you voted for the guy who authorized THAT payment... two years after he did it.  There's a word with a greek root for this... what is it... hypo--hypochondriac? hypocalamitous? hypodermic?  

So the criminals make good decisions when Obama is President, and bad decisions when Bush is President? Hey, cool.


Do you think those are bad decisions?  Why not comment on Obama's record instead of just blanketing him as a criminal.  
Healthcare legislation is going to save the government money over the long term, something you claim to care about--that's the position of the CBO, and they are as non-partisan and non-spin as it gets.
Getting out of Iraq is not only right morally--we should have never been there--but will save us a ton of money as well.  
Calling politicians blanket criminals is just weak.  Give me an example of criminality.  I'd suggest that getting everyone health care doesn't rise to the level of criminality unless you are a tea party nutjob.  There are two alternatives to the healthcare legislation.  Both suck.

Invading Iraq ia an example of a very bad, very costly decision.  Obama has not made a bad decision like that... anywhere near that.  In fact, he's made some really good ones.  His administration has accomplished as much as the Johnson administration, in 2 years.  It's the most successful presidency in 40 years.  You really have no basis for your argument that I can discern.  

I'm beginning to suspect that there is something deeper behind your Obama hatred.  Because on the face of it, he's done a pretty good job.

Sure, the deficit sucks, but you seem perfectly OK with Bush adding the majority of that through unnecessary tax cuts that both spiralled the deficit out of control, and failed to create jobs (oh yeah, did I mention that Bush has the worst job-creation record of any president ever over his term? You can google that shit).
Sure, unemployment is high, but you seem perfectly OK with Wall street--they work hard for their money.  They are good people.  So they created a financial disaster that put us where we are today--you still seem to have a lot of respect for them.  Obama, not so much.  

So, what's really behind the hate?  

Come on Charger....every one knows why hooky hates Obama.  Obama is.......dark skinned.  He can't be trusted.  We've already seen when them dark folks did to Gary, Indiana, a once prominent area.  They turned it into the ghetto.

don't you know that Obama will do the same thing to the US.  The whole country will be a ghetto.

And charger....it's OK for Bush to run the country into the ground.  God told him to do it and he's fucking lilly white.  So naturally we have to give Bush a pass.  He passes the litmus test.....white and talks to god....and he had Hooky at white.

don't you know charger that we shouldn't tax the rich.  What we SHOULD do is CONQUEST.  Take over Afghanistan and Iraq and then tax the shit out of them and quit taxing Americans.  They are second rate humans anyway.  hell you should know charger....your one of those terrorists anyway with a name like yours....PLUS your half Irish and I know there's some IRA in your blood somewhere.  You MUST be part of that Axis of Evil.  

*/sarcasm*

I don't think Hook is into the bankers.  He loves the 250,000 to 500,000 "common man" or his boss at least.  I usually don't care about my boss's tax rate and if they're humble, like fingers brought up, I dig 'em too.  

I think most people who hate/super blame Bammer either got their hopes up to euphoria levels or voted for the worst embarrassment of a president multiple times and now must blame this current chump for not fixing things on his own immediately...as if that's possible.  

Who else are they going to blame, themselves?

How is it that you equate both as the same without regard to intent and reason.









quote author=Hookbender link=1285488947/25#31 date=1285724824]

fingers — Sep 28, 2010Obama would say it is very  easy - look how an idiot like Bush could royally shaft you all.

Bush's cunning plan  -  
borrow a shit load of money in your name  to give you tax cuts to buy your votes.

Sure it is easy as enough people are dumb enough to fall for that.

Hook - I am a real nice guy - I am going to give you $100k
I took out a $110k mortgage in your name backed by your house.

Would you fall for that ?

Well you did effectively that with Bush

Obama's doing the same thing. He just calls it like it is. Plain ole borrowing and spending. He spends our money the way he wants to, Bush gave it to us to spend ourselves. The end result is the same, debt.

Hey FB, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at.  What are the reasons that so many people hate Obama.  I guess like you suggest it probably plays to their latent racism.  And also to the ideas that Binge pointed out--that the economy still hasn't recovered from the pummeling it took. As if it could somehow everything would be fixed in 18 months.

The part I don't understand is how anyone can think Obama is doing such a terrible job.  Consider that in 2008, we lost 2.6 million jobs.  Obama didn't take office til 2009.  So far in 2010, we're looking at job growth of around 760,000.  A million plus for the year would be great, and we might get there. But it's not going to happen fast.  But there's no question that the ship's been turned around.  It's just that the crisis was so unbelievably bad... I don't think most people realize how bad it was.  They think that we can just flip a switch and all the jobs will come back.  That somehow, if we just did the same thing Bush did again, we'd get a different result.

The bush stuff goes way beyond the bad economy though. Bush n' company's "fuck ups" were not to be believed at face value.  This cat left his party having to completely act as if he didn't exist.  This was eight years of denial then hate buildup and it was instantly redirected toward BamBam.  Mebee it was meant to be. hehe heh. Sometimes I think itz all theater. Plus the money has been flowing in the against column since the election results were in. Congress has put through pretty middle of the road bills that pubs worked on, then held up, then filibustered, and still didn't vote for in the end...then they talk about time wasted.  Fuckin' laughable, meng...but then again one of the functions of gov and the pres in particular is to be an entity to blame.  It's an important role.

charger — Sep 30, 2010Hey FB, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at.  What are the reasons that so many people hate Obama.  I guess like you suggest it probably plays to their latent racism.  And also to the ideas that Binge pointed out--that the economy still hasn't recovered from the pummeling it took. As if it could somehow everything would be fixed in 18 months.

The part I don't understand is how anyone can think Obama is doing such a terrible job.  Consider that in 2008, we lost 2.6 million jobs.  Obama didn't take office til 2009.  So far in 2010, we're looking at job growth of around 760,000.  A million plus for the year would be great, and we might get there. But it's not going to happen fast.  But there's no question that the ship's been turned around.  It's just that the crisis was so unbelievably bad... I don't think most people realize how bad it was.  They think that we can just flip a switch and all the jobs will come back.  That somehow, if we just did the same thing Bush did again, we'd get a different result.

Charger the simple answer is that Americans have no patience for anything.  They are so used to shock and awe and immediate screw ups that they have become desensitized to REALITY.

We no longer have the capacity to dig in and ride out the storm.  we want instant gratification which is just sad.

It won't matter that Obama has fixed stuff.  We didn't notice it.  We didn't see the results immediately so as far as we are concerned it didn't happen.  That's the mentality.....and he's a black non-american muslim whose gonna blow up the white house so he can claim his 70 virgins.

BINGEWOOD — Sep 30, 2010The bush stuff goes way beyond the bad economy though. Bush n' company's "fuck ups" were not to be believed at face value.  This cat left his party having to completely act as if he didn't exist.  This was eight years of denial then hate buildup and it was instantly redirected toward BamBam.  Mebee it was meant to be. hehe heh. Sometimes I think itz all theater. Plus the money has been flowing in the against column since the election results were in. Congress has put through pretty middle of the road bills that pubs worked on, then held up, then filibustered, and still didn't vote for in the end...then they talk about time wasted.  Fuckin' laughable, meng...but then again one of the functions of gov and the pres in particular is to be an entity to blame.  It's an important role.

Bingo!

It is a political attempt at a re-draft of recent history.
can you imagine how a Stratman is trying to compute the events of recent years,
They have to start from the premise that their beliefs are immutable truths as their political beliefs are conflated in a confused and warped way with religion.

question one part of the edifice means question the other.

If those beliefs can't be wrong then there is only one thing left -  warping reality around them to fit.

Which is standard fare in religion - dinosaur fossils were put there by there by the devil to deceive ... etc.

It is fucking lucky that the economic storm hit it's high point in late 2008.
Warping the reality is made much harder.


The hatred of Obama is fueled by the impotent rage of people who will not be forced to question their fundamentalist beliefs in the face of facts.

That's just what it looks like to me fingers.....and Fenderbender.

Amen....tell it brothers....(tongues).ehhh..compraditticambojajajabellsambia

You both must be walking in the spirit. ;D ;D

Why would you think I hate Obama? Nothing in my post suggest that. I can't see that any of his spending has produced any good results.

On healthcare...I hope the cost is what's predicted. I just don't have the faith that you seem to have in that being the case.

What about tax cuts that Obama has issued? I guess that's ok because he's a democrat.

If the unemployment rate during the Bush years averaged somewhere around 5 or 6%, how much lower do you think it should have been? What do you suppose that Bush could have done to make it any lower? And why do you feel the need to bring up Bush when Obama is President? I bet Bush haunts you in your dreams. just wait till halloween. ;D ;D ;D

pickmaster60 — Oct 01, 2010That's just what it looks like to me fingers.....and Fenderbender.

Amen....tell it brothers....(tongues).ehhh..compraditticambojajajabellsambia

You both must be walking in the spirit. ;D ;D

Tell me Spongebob....how does terd taste? :D

Hookbender — Oct 05, 2010Why would you think I hate Obama? Nothing in my post suggest that. I can't see that any of his spending has produced any good results.

I can't prove a negative, so I can't say that without stimulus, we would be in a much worse place right now, but I think that's a given. I don't agree with everything in the stimulus but overall I think it was the necessary strategy to prevent something much worse.

On healthcare...I hope the cost is what's predicted. I just don't have the faith that you seem to have in that being the case.

Fair enough.  I don't do anything on "faith" by the way.

What about tax cuts that Obama has issued? I guess that's ok because he's a democrat.

No, I don't like those tax cuts.  I thought that was the worst part of the stimulus.  Tax cuts for people who have no jobs is asinine.  But here's the thing-- EVERYONE likes tax cuts.  Everyone except people who actually want to reduce the deficit.  Obama is trying to roll back taxes to what they were under Clinton--a time of insane prosperity and budget surpluses for our country--and only for rich people--and he still can't get the votes to do it.  I doubt he could have passed the stimulus without tax cuts.

To me, if I have to choose between less tax cuts and more tax cuts, I'll choose less.  Though I don't believe in them at all.  Tax cuts were THE defining monetary policy of the Bush presidency, and he ended his 5 years with the worst recession since the 1930's, and the worst job creation record of any president.  Carter created 3x as many jobs, in half the time.  Carter!

If the unemployment rate during the Bush years averaged somewhere around 5 or 6%, how much lower do you think it should have been? What do you suppose that Bush could have done to make it any lower? And why do you feel the need to bring up Bush when Obama is President? I bet Bush haunts you in your dreams. just wait till halloween. ;D ;D ;D

Do you think the unemployment rate during the Bush years was a good tradeoff for what we have now?  Just askin'.  The reason I bring up Bush is because Bush provides the most obvious, recent, and direct proof that Republican monetary policy is a nightmare.  Bush' tax cuts added 3 trillion to the deficit, and the end result was not a powerful, well-employed work force.  The end result was calamity that we haven't seen in 70 years.  

If you're staring at your burned-down house, that burned to the ground because of faulty wiring, do you say "let's rebuild and let's hire that same electrician because he gave us a discount" or do you say "let's rebuild and pay full price for work that's not going to destroy our house"?

You act like Obama and the current economy exist in a vacuum.  As if he could just walk in, flip the light switch, and turn back the problems that Bush took 8 years creating.  And then you ask why we talk about Bush?

Hell, why talk about the fact that Clinton had surpluses?  Who cares?  Why would we want to emulate monetary policy that caused surpluses and brought the deficit down?  Fuck, let's not learn from history.  Let's not use facts.  Let's just go it on gut feeling and hope it works out.

Great idea.

ya just can't cure a fundy.

Facts and figures don't matter.
Logic and reason goes out the window.
Emotionalism gets in the way.
Superstition grips even tighter.