The Watering Hole

Politics

109 posts

chase #51 · Nov 05, 2008 23:44 UTC

good god, everyone is so quick to point out anything having to do with race. i can safely say race played 0 percent role in my decision to vote against obama. had obama been billy jo bob from western kentucky i still wouldn't have voted for him.

charger — Nov 05, 2008[quote author=chase link=1225860285/25#41 date=1225921693]i didn't say any of those rumors you just brought up. i did plenty of research on the candidates proposals. what decided my vote against obama was several issues

1st- cut military spending by 1/3 to 1/4. big no-no for me
2nd- didn't like the structure of his tax plan
3rd- don't like his stance on 2nd amendment issues. regardless of what he says go look at his voting record; some of what he voted for blows my mind.
4th- ZERO military experience yet will lead our nations military into a very tumultuous time in history with iran/isreal/iraq/afghanistan/etc.
5th- nationalized healthcare

social programs i don't like... about all of them. does that sum it up? again my political views are that of a minarchist.

You have an extreme minority view about politics. It seems you should be voting for Ron Paul or Bob Barr or someone. Yet you vote for McCain, a person who shares virtually none of your views, over Obama. And your first statement about the whole election is about racism?

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

fingers #52 · Nov 05, 2008 23:47 UTC

CraigBert — Nov 05, 2008[quote author=charger link=1225860285/25#44 date=1225926701]

[quote author=charger link=1225860285/25#44 date=1225926701] You have an extreme minority view about politics. It seems you should be voting for Ron Paul or Bob Barr or someone. Yet you vote for McCain, a person who shares virtually none of your views, over Obama.

I'm curious if he really DOES have an extreme minority view or if there are many like him who don't realize that there are other parties out there that fit their views better so they vote for whichever of the two main candidates they feel is the lesser of the two evils...

Maybe these parties are really minimalist and hard to find as large scale organisation is against fundamental principles.

A large national organisation of uber individualists - where do find them, herding cats somewhere no doubt. :)

chase #53 · Nov 05, 2008 23:54 UTC

i'll say it again. ron paul had my support through the primaries and he continues to now. unfortunately i doubt he will run in 2012; i would love for him to prove me wrong. the man is an absolute financial genius. give him an experienced foregin policy advisor and you have a great combination for the us in the coming years.

sadly i think i am in the minority in the US as evidenced by mccain taking the nomination

charger #54 · Nov 06, 2008 02:47 UTC

Ron Paul has a certain following. One of my friend's dads always tries to corner me and ramble on about Ron Paul, government waste, the war in Iraq, the scam of global warming, and a global planning conspiracy. Although it's interesting, and Ron Paul has some decent ideas, he kind of reminds me of Ross Perot... I think watching him give a press conference would put me to sleep.

I have no shame in admitting that I like Obama as much for his eloquence and vision as I do for his policies. I have always said, and will maintain until I die, that the President of the United States should be a well-spoken person, who can write an incredible speech, and who inspires people. That's why Kennedy's and Clinton's approval numbers were through the roof. Do you realize that even after Clinton admitted getting a BJ from Lewinsky, his popularity never dropped below 50%? Obama's approval numbers will also be high. George Bush actually had his drop into the teens. The TEENS. That's how bad he sucks.

spaivxx #55 · Nov 06, 2008 04:46 UTC

All I can say comrades is you got what you, and apparently the majority of the country is in agreement with you. Honestly, I had no real hope that McCain would win. I sat through his campaign and shook my head day in and day out wondering how it came to be that he was our best pick. We had Romney and Fred Thompson, why did the GOP end up choosing McCain?

Chairman Obama will lead the Union now. I still don't really know what great changes anyone expects. Doesn't matter, he can' go wrongnow. He was a shoe in for the election. A hip younger black guy who is not a Republican who is articulate and very slick; I don't think anyone could have beaten him once he had his party's support. It is what it is. All the talk of race today made me sick. Let's be honest, Obama's heritage was a huge selling point in this election. I am fine with him being black, I don't care. What I do care about is the big deal being made about it and how this huge advantage has been represented as an obstacle.

I could go on ad nauseaum about how I simply don't understand how anyone can say in 2008 being black is anything less than an advantage, unless maybe you live somewhere in some remote corner of the deep south. Our entire culture is being rapidly transformed; we have a whole generation of urbanized wanna be black teens and young adults out there. Even the language itself is being ebonized. Again, i don't give a fuck about that, but for people to react as though the guy just escaped the plantation and took the Oval Office is to me very disingenuous. This is not 1864 or even 1964.

So Obama won. fine. I really hope he manages to do some great things. I hope he has a great term in office, hell even two if he is actually doing great things. I don't expect that he is going to fullfil even a small percentage of what he has promised or what the coolaide drinkers expect of him, bu that too will be OK. because if he is successful, then he will be worshipped by even more people. If he fails, well of course then it will simply be a mater of the former administrastion's mess was so bad that even he, the ObamaChrist, could not fix it.

I tell you this, if I were a literalist in my faith, if I still believed in end times prophecy, then I would be sure that Obama's election was the beginning of the reign of the beast. I am sure in many backwater churches accross the land, various scriptures are being cited and congregations are being instructd to prepare for the end of days.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" -Matthew 7:15

and

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect if -- that were possible. So be on your guard. See I have told you everything ahead of time. " -Mark 13:22-23

BTW -- Don't jump all over me for quoting scripture, I do not necessarily subscribe to the notion of Armageddon and the Second Coming and all (and I certainly do not believe in the Rapture since it is not even actually in the Bible), was merely stating that if I did, the ObamaChrist would have me on red alert.

Fuck it, hopefully the Mayans were right and we all only have four more years to worry about ANYTHING anyhow. Oh shit, that is it!! The Mayans say the world ends in the end of 2012. Barring that, I guess it is going tobe an interseting 4-8 years.

CraigB #56 · Nov 06, 2008 09:04 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 06, 2008 Fuck it, hopefully the Mayans were right and we all only have four more years to worry about ANYTHING anyhow. Oh shit, that is it!! The Mayans say the world ends in the end of 2012.

Yep, the world is going to end RIGHT before my birthday! (Bastards!)

December 21st, at 11:11 UT, 2012.

The Mayans said it, the Egyptians, the Jews and others! (There was a cool show about it on the Science Channel a couple of months ago.)

Must be true then, eh?

(I bet I still turn another year older though. ;) )

Tripper #57 · Nov 06, 2008 15:34 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 06, 2008All I can say comrades is you got what you, and apparently the majority of the country is in agreement with you. Honestly, I had no real hope that McCain would win. I sat through his campaign and shook my head day in and day out wondering how it came to be that he was our best pick. We had Romney and Fred Thompson, why did the GOP end up choosing McCain?

Because Thompson's a certifiable moron, politically, and woefully under-qualified to be president (and, of course, didn't really want it), and Romney simply didn't seem sincere enough (governor of Massachusetts?)

Chairman Obama will lead the Union now. I still don't really know what great changes anyone expects. Doesn't matter, he can' go wrongnow. He was a shoe in for the election. A hip younger black guy who is not a Republican who is articulate and very slick; I don't think anyone could have beaten him once he had his party's support. It is what it is. All the talk of race today made me sick. Let's be honest, Obama's heritage was a huge selling point in this election. I am fine with him being black, I don't care. What I do care about is the big deal being made about it and how this huge advantage has been represented as an obstacle.

Did you watch any of the primary coverage? Did you see how many liberal democrats who supported Hillary were saying racist things about Obama? Did you happen to understand the connection between the use of his full name and his past to create a myth that he was a Muslim and a terrorist? No, his race had NOTHING to do with it. :P If he had been a completely white man, he may not have gotten as much inital attention as he did for his speech, and he may not have beaten Hillary in the primaries, but his message, delivered by a white man who was as fiery a speaker, and compared to the other white man running, would have won him an even bigger landslide. I know our generation doesn't give as much a shit about race, so it's not nearly the issue to us, but our parents' generation DOES care, and it was very evident. The older and whiter the voter, the less likely they were to vote for the black dude, no matter what party they were.

I could go on ad nauseaum about how I simply don't understand how anyone can say in 2008 being black is anything less than an advantage, unless maybe you live somewhere in some remote corner of the deep south. Our entire culture is being rapidly transformed; we have a whole generation of urbanized wanna be black teens and young adults out there. Even the language itself is being ebonized. Again, i don't give a fuck about that, but for people to react as though the guy just escaped the plantation and took the Oval Office is to me very disingenuous. This is not 1864 or even 1964.

He's not even the descendant of slaves - he's African. But you (like most white men of a centrist or right-wing bent) are missing the point entirely. This hasn't happened before. America has only ever elected white men. To see a person of color in charge of this country is a BIG change for America and a BIG change for the world, because our history has always shown us talking the talk, but not necessarily walking the walk.

So Obama won. fine. I really hope he manages to do some great things. I hope he has a great term in office, hell even two if he is actually doing great things. I don't expect that he is going to fullfil even a small percentage of what he has promised or what the coolaide drinkers expect of him, bu that too will be OK. because if he is successful, then he will be worshipped by even more people. If he fails, well of course then it will simply be a mater of the former administrastion's mess was so bad that even he, the ObamaChrist, could not fix it.

Well, regardless of what happens, this election is transformative. Let's just hope his smarts, his calm, and his arrogance-free confidence enables him to solve a lot of these problems, get smart and capable people running things again, and inspire people to actually care about being smart and knowing things again (instead of just following the groupthink like the Bushies have for so long).

I tell you this, if I were a literalist in my faith, if I still believed in end times prophecy, then I would be sure that Obama's election was the beginning of the reign of the beast. I am sure in many backwater churches accross the land, various scriptures are being cited and congregations are being instructd to prepare for the end of days.

And that's not RACISM? Obama's a fucking Bible-believing Christian - for more than 20 years! The notion that his faith is a charade is, well, absurd. I mean, I can DREAM that it is (though I'd hate for him to be that dishonest), but it's as much a part of him as his love for his wife.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" -Matthew 7:15

and

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect if -- that were possible. So be on your guard. See I have told you everything ahead of time. " -Mark 13:22-23

BTW -- Don't jump all over me for quoting scripture, I do not necessarily subscribe to the notion of Armageddon and the Second Coming and all (and I certainly do not believe in the Rapture since it is not even actually in the Bible), was merely stating that if I did, the ObamaChrist would have me on red alert.

I doubt you would feel this way if a white dude was saying the same things. It's stupid, pathetic, RACIST horseshit (and as we both know, endemic to the brand of Christianity that flourishes in North Florida).

Fuck it, hopefully the Mayans were right and we all only have four more years to worry about ANYTHING anyhow. Oh shit, that is it!! The Mayans say the world ends in the end of 2012. Barring that, I guess it is going tobe an interseting 4-8 years.

All that "end times" crap is just that - crap. It's nothing but fantasies created to attempt to force people into supernatural chicanery (and donating to their church to ensure their life beyond life).

But that's a topic for another section...
Tripper

pickmaster60 #58 · Nov 06, 2008 17:40 UTC

The end times people have thought every person in in any powerul positionmight be the beast. Including Reagan. ;D

I heard Rush a little while ago claiming that the moderate republicans are running the conservatives out. ;D
They are becoming a smaller bunch. Those right wing fundies!

charger #59 · Nov 06, 2008 18:06 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 06, 2008All the talk of race today made me sick. Let's be honest, Obama's heritage was a huge selling point in this election. I am fine with him being black, I don't care. What I do care about is the big deal being made about it and how this huge advantage has been represented as an obstacle.

There were many, many people, particularly Hillary Democrats, who would not support Obama because he is black. If he had been white, and had the same message and ability to speak (a la Clinton or Kennedy), I think it would have been a 10-12 point win, a true landslide.

fingers #60 · Nov 06, 2008 21:32 UTC

chase — Nov 05, 2008
remember that bailout that he voted for....

i'm not knocking the passing of that package as i believe it was necessary at the time. whether it was good or bad, necessary or not, it does stink of socialism; as do many of his ideas. america has been sliding towards socialism for the last 100 years, obama is only another brick in the road

The economic crisis happened under republican government , it was the culmination of 8 years of republican policy - it is a republican economic legacy.
The bailout was proposed by Bush and voted for by McCain.
You seem to have enough sense to understand why it was necessary, so you would have voted for it.

So explain again how Obama's vote is evidence for anything other than he had enough sense to vote for a republican bill - one that was necessary in the face of the dire economic legacy left by republicans.

Claiming it as evidence of his Socialism is sneaky but not credible.

If Obama is a "brick in the road" on the way to socialism - then the republicans have built a stretch of highway in the last 8 years.

Believe me - this financial fiasco has spread all around the world leading to countries world wide having to bail out their financial systems,

Nationalising banks FAR exceeds the limits of socialism present in Europe.

The US has exported the biggest systemic crisis in living memory under the republicans, one where the only solution was to circumvent capitalism, it wasn't done because everyone woke up and decided to be socialist one day, it was done because the alternative was incredible destruction.

Capitalism has had a huge failure - a huge dent to it's reputation and credibility - the biggest for a century.
I work in financial markets so I am not some left wing pandora on this.

The socialism of Obama is the leanings of a social kind - health care being the major one.

That does not challenge capitalism at all, capitalism has lived quite happily with that kind of socialism for decades including in the US.
It actually helps capitalism to have government do social things as it creates stability and provides healthy educated people to work for it.

People can argue politically about the degree - but the principle is established in all countries.
The government grabs monopoly in certain areas - it always has.

Public Education - socialism.
Military - socialism.
Law enforcement - socialism

True libertarians do not see the state as having any function at all.
But back in "reality" - these areas of monopoly are so widely accepted as fact that most people can no longer see it as it is.

Politics is about degree and ultimately it is about the system - does it fly.
There are only systems that work and those that don't.

And competence plays a bigger role in that then idealogical bullshit.

Bush has exported socialism worldwide not through any ideology - nobody wants it, in fact everyone is horrified by it - but through crass incompetence that lead to the near total collapse of capitalism.

If Obama is even half as competent as he appears then it is a huge change for the better.

And that has nothing to do with race, he and Biden are clearly more competent than McCain and (lol) Palin.

We all badly need competence now.

It is like replacing Stratman with Charger - yah dig :D

Hookbender #61 · Nov 06, 2008 21:48 UTC

I don't think it would be a bad idea to take the good out of any "ism" and mix it in a little. See what happens. May work, may not. But we have socialism within our sysyem now that has worked for years, although not without faults. Overall, I think a mixture would be a good thing.

fingers #62 · Nov 06, 2008 23:02 UTC

I agree Hook, pragmatic, use judgement not ideology.
Ideology is simplistic - like deciding that a claw hammer is the solution for every job as it was good for nailing down the roof in a hurricane.
Nothing has ever worked without fault - it is has and always will be a work in progress.
So long as people are not slaves to a system they will try to perfect it.

IMO - right or left - competence is the most important thing,

The Bush bail out the financial system was a competent act,

Their final STUPID ideological act was letting Lehman collapse in a pile of financial 9/11 dust - it spawned such a huge finanial panic they had no choice but to nationalise everything.

It is crazy to look back on now - it is only a couple of months :)

Even if your ideology balks at the idea of bailing out Lehman (mine does) - simple self preservation means you don't cut the rope you are both hanging from - you find another way to punish them.

What fucking idiots they are - really it is staggering.

And to top it all - you get someone like Chase idly wandering around mumbling about socialism and how he is so well researched - and he is without a fucking clue. :)

charger #63 · Nov 06, 2008 23:11 UTC

Yep. As Fingers said, the military, public education, law enforcement, all are "socialist" if you hew to a strict definition.

I'll add to that. Medicare/Medicaid. Social Security. Firefighting. Roads.

I like Fingers' last post. That is a good read and a good refutation for all the bullshit I continue to hear.

I'll just say this. Obama had the foresight to stand up against this war when no one did... before it started. That single decision shows me the difference between an Obama administration and a Bush or McCain administration. What the president should do is think about his actions before he takes them. Although I have no doubt Obama's ideology is left of center, I believe that he is a pragmatist and an intellectual above being an ideologue--someone who will think things through, and listen to arguments from the other side, even when they are completely out of phase with his core beliefs, and then make the best decision. Bush was an ideologue before being a pragmatist, and never showed an inkling of intellectualism, or even intellectual curiosity. He came into office looking to enact his ideology, and then he did. We saw the results of that. We are in a meltdown of unparalleled depth and horrific intensity. Anyone who voted for Bush a second time has no right to criticize those of us who now vote for Obama. McCain is a pragmatist, but also an ideologue, and proved in this campaign to be both erratic, and to be willing to jettison his beliefs to cater to extreme ideologues whose votes he needed. And Palin is even more anti-intellectual than Bush!

spaivxx #64 · Nov 06, 2008 23:49 UTC

Tripper, I take exception to you stooping to misguided personal attacks against me. Calling me a racist simply because I do not like your messiah is low, even for a hostile liberal. I had thought better of you than that.

I never one time said anything bad about Obama's race. I would have really loved to see my party with a black candidate. I may have even voted for a Democratic black candidate if he were someone like Colin Powell.

I simply do not like Obama. I have met a lot of chalatans in my life, and he reminds me of them all. I did not hear this from Rush, I did not hear it from Hannity, noone beamed it into my head. You are so enthralled in sucking Obama's dick that it never occired to you that simply because I disagree with you it does not mean that I am not some robot or zombie.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe it is OK that someone else sees something differently than you. I give you credi for being smart and you obviously take the time to think out most of what you post, but you can seriously be an arrogant prick sometimes.

Believe it or not, I, on my own, based on reading Obama's own words from his own damn book and website, have decided that I am philosphically opposed to most of his policies. Yeah, I formed an opinion, on my own, based on information that I obtained straight from the source. I do not like the idea of government involvement, in any way, in my life, period. The left represents inrusive governement in all aspets of life. I know, you can throw a rebuttal about the Republican stance on abortion or whatever, and, I am not saying Republicans are pefect or correct on all aspects of their policies either. I do not believe in forced income redistribution. I do not believe in the nanny state. I think ALL federal aide, with the exception of closely regulated student grants and or loans, should be abolished. Fuck welfare, fuck bailouts, let the chips fall where they may, the strong, those with the intelligence and fortitude to survive hard times, will flourish, those not motivated enough to see to their own survival, will not. What the fuck is so wrong with that? I have never gotten a single penny of charity from any source, including but not limited to the government, my family (paid my bills as a kid from the age of 15 onward) or any other source. EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER HAD I HAVE TAKEN. I have never asked anyone on this earth for anything that I did not pay for. I hate the entitlement mentallity that has weakened this nation.

I have been thinking a lot about this, I almost considered voting for Obama because Palin scared me. I could not imagine her ever actually being our president, and with McCain's age, had he won, there was a very high probability that she would have had to step up to the plate on little notice. But the more I listened to him, the less I could even consider voting against my concience.

Man Tripper I am so pissed off right now from reading your response to me that I can physically feel the anger welling up in me. Did I personally attack you? No.

My end times thing came straight from my beliefes as a child when I spent hours and hours on a daily basis studying prophecy. Obama has glamoured the nation. It is uncanny. In my life I have never seen so many people so enamoured with a public figure. If he were white, I would have said the same thing. And, note, I did not even say that I believed these things, but that backwater churches, meaning these litle churches in the Bible belt where an antire town may congregate and hang on the pastor's every word, will be saying so. And ya know what? I was right. Today I saw a van painted with a message reading Obama is the antichrist, end times are upon us, pray sor salvation". I saw a man carrying an end of days sign near my jobsite as well. So, again, I stand by my assertion that the extreme evangelistic Biblical literalists may see Obama's rise to power as a fullfilment of prophecy. There is more, the world is as the Bible, Nostradomus and various other prophetic texts said it would be during the end of days.

Fuck man maybe I am in the wrong line of work, maybe I should start a doomsday church and milk these fucks for their cash.

To be clear, not that it matters, I did say that I am NOT a theological literalist. I am not certain what I believe about God or whatever, but I am pretty cerain that I do not believe in the common literal inerpretation of prophecies.

Lastly, back to the issue of race. It is not lost on me that people of the older generations struggled through tough times and that our nation was very wrong in it's treatment of African Americans. But, I think you have completely twisted my view. It is precisely because I am colorblind that it offends me to hear it obsessed over so much in the media. For the past six months I have listened to NPR all day at work every day. (Yeah, big surprise ya fuck, haven't heard Rush or Hannity or even Boortz for several months because they just got too repetitive, and I did not want their voices in my head as I sorted out my opinions on OBama.) All day on NPR the race issue keeps coming up. I get it, fine, the first black president. I guess it just amazes me that in 2008 this is actually still an issue. Electing someone simply because of their race is stupid. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but I know for a fact that a great many black folk here in Duval county voted for Obama just because he is black. I can't count the number of interviews on NPR where folks have said the same thing. If he were white, maybe he may have still won, but I highly doubt it.

I do stand by my assertion that the youth vote that Obama recieved had a whole lot more to do with him being a hip young black dude and running a stellar marleting campaign. That's the thing Tripper, I never said the guy was not smart, and I have no issue with his lack of experience. I mean nobody has experience being president until they are there, and ususally by the time they have gained experience, it turns out to be a detriment rather than a boone.

All that said, I still say, in spite of how many of his followers have really pissed me off in recent days, that if the guy does anything at all to improve the state of this nation, anything that really has an impact, then yeah I would vote for his second term. In the grand scheme of things, what I do or say has absolutley no affect on anything. Same with anyone here, we are insignifigant, all we can do is pointlessly argue about it. Cast our vote, maybe that helps, but even then, McCain would not have lost or gained a thing through my single vote or even the votes of those whom I have managed to convince to vote this year. But still, as a symbolic act of my love of this country, in spite of the futility of it, I would vote for and even campaign for Obama if he really made some kind of positive change.

But you know what, nothing he does will impact me in a positive way. I am poor but not poor enough, or shameless enough to accept government money. Hell I have the IRS still fucking with me for tax money they think I owe form years ago when I did not even have reportable income. Government involvement in my life and the life of my family has been nothing less than costly and intrusive. I am not looking forward to more ass fucking from the fed.

Pardon any mistypes or whatever, too irritated to proof read.

Hookbender #65 · Nov 07, 2008 00:05 UTC

Damn man, you must have a bad temper to get that mad.

The reality is, Obama is the first black President. It's something to be proud of, concerning race, for a change.

And I think Obama has changed the country already. He's enthused many young voters, young people, to vote for one thing. They are our future. For them to get involved early, and be informed and interested, is wonderful.

I think America, in general, will never be the same. I think our country changed with his winning the Presidency.

Sounds like your mad at black people for being so proud of Obama, and or, the country for electing him. I think Black people should be proud, they should talk about this. Everyone should talk about this and see the benefit. This is a huge time in our history, something everyone should be proud of.

pickmaster60 #66 · Nov 07, 2008 00:09 UTC

spicy! :)

spaivxx #67 · Nov 07, 2008 00:51 UTC

No Hook I am not mad a t black people at all, and I said a billion times (maybe a bit less than a billion) that the historic aspect of this is not lost on me. But with all the real issues going on right now, I don't think race should be one of them. Yes, if a person voted for him because he is black, I think that is BULLSHIT. I would never vote for someone, or jam with someone, or befriend someone, ecause they are white, black, etc... However, that would not stop me from doing so either. Two of my all time favorite musicians, men I practically idolize, are black, and their genre was at one time exclusively black. these men are Miles Davis and John Coltrane.

I am mad because I find Trippers response insulting, and he is smart enough that the insult was direct and deliberate, Condescending bullshit. That is why I am mad.

spaivxx #68 · Nov 07, 2008 00:58 UTC

BTW, i try very hard to avoid this section because it is definitely a hard left forum and I have no chance of actually having a balanced conversation here, I get that. I just wanted to weigh in on the election. In none of my responses did I wish Obama any ill will or say I hope he fails. I pray he is the best president ever, but, whether he is or not, the left will say he was. I would be extremely honored to meet the man, I have never denied that he is a very smart and effective politician. I personally know people who would like nothing more than to witness his assasination, and I find their view repulsive. Whether i like the man or not, I would still step in front of a bullet if it came down to it, as I would for anyone else.

He reminds me of some of the most deceptive and cunning men I have ever known, but I guess I am not allowed to voice that opinion because he is black and if I do not like the man I am automatically a racist.

Hookbender #69 · Nov 07, 2008 01:26 UTC

I'd say this is a logical section, down here. Not really so much a liberal one, per say.

Hookbender #70 · Nov 07, 2008 01:34 UTC

Wait, you don't think our problems in this country involving race.....is important? I'd say that has been and issue forever. A huge problem in fact.

spaivxx #71 · Nov 07, 2008 02:42 UTC

Hook, pardon my ignorance, but I must ask. What problem today do we have in the country regarding race? This is an honest question. I am 37 years old and have never seen black and white segregated rest rooms. I have never seen a black man denied any right or privelege. I don't know a single black person out of the who knows how many that I know, who has ever relayed to me a single incidence of prejudice that resulted in a denied opportunity.

Granted, there are hicks out there and black folk out there who hate, but they are not representative of any signifigant percentage of the population. I would go a step further and say we have over compensated and today, right now, it is better to be a black American than a white one. There are all black colleges, many, many affirmative action programs in the workplace and schools, our culture is shifting into blackcentric mode.

Unless maybe you live in Mississippi or Kentucky or some hick laden place like that, I can't imagine that the racial issues of generations past even have an effect on any aspect of a modern black mans life, except for perhaps the emotional trauma of having this "we gotta hate whitie for the sins of their ancestors" crap shoved down your throat all day long.

The past was bad in a lot of ways, not only in America but humanity in general has sinned grealy against many ethnic groups, and it continues to this day in other parts of the world.

I would have this same reaction if a Jewish or gay president were elected and people said it was about time, and that distracted attention from the issues he was elected to solve.

Which brings me to another point. Obama never said he wanted to address or deal with the so called race problem (which I don't believe exists) in America, did he?

For the trillionth time, I appreciate the historic signifigance of President Obama being elected, but the people who voted for him because he was the black guy did themselves and their nation a great disservice and I would argue have actually set back any percieved progress in dealing with this alleged race issue today.

Back to the origianl question hook, what is the current race problem in America?

Hookbender #72 · Nov 07, 2008 04:22 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 07, 2008Hook, pardon my ignorance, but I must ask. What problem today do we have in the country regarding race? This is an honest question. I am 37 years old and have never seen black and white segregated rest rooms. I have never seen a black man denied any right or privelege. I don't know a single black person out of the who knows how many that I know, who has ever relayed to me a single incidence of prejudice that resulted in a denied opportunity.

Granted, there are hicks out there and black folk out there who hate, but they are not representative of any signifigant percentage of the population. I would go a step further and say we have over compensated and today, right now, it is better to be a black American than a white one. There are all black colleges, many, many affirmative action programs in the workplace and schools, our culture is shifting into blackcentric mode.

Unless maybe you live in Mississippi or Kentucky or some hick laden place like that, I can't imagine that the racial issues of generations past even have an effect on any aspect of a modern black mans life, except for perhaps the emotional trauma of having this "we gotta hate whitie for the sins of their ancestors" crap shoved down your throat all day long.

The past was bad in a lot of ways, not only in America but humanity in general has sinned grealy against many ethnic groups, and it continues to this day in other parts of the world.

I would have this same reaction if a Jewish or gay president were elected and people said it was about time, and that distracted attention from the issues he was elected to solve.

Which brings me to another point. Obama never said he wanted to address or deal with the so called race problem (which I don't believe exists) in America, did he?

For the trillionth time, I appreciate the historic signifigance of President Obama being elected, but the people who voted for him because he was the black guy did themselves and their nation a great disservice and I would argue have actually set back any percieved progress in dealing with this alleged race issue today.

Back to the origianl question hook, what is the current race problem in America?

Hookbender #73 · Nov 07, 2008 04:25 UTC

And here's something of interest for you Pick-o-master....

From the WIKI article above....

Anti-White racism
In the United States, there have been crimes committed against White Americans on the basis of their ethnicity. According to FBI statistics from 1995-2002, Whites are the second most targeted group for racially motivated hate crime.[42

Take that. ;)

charger #74 · Nov 07, 2008 04:35 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 07, 2008I would go a step further and say we have over compensated and today, right now, it is better to be a black American than a white one. There are all black colleges, many, many affirmative action programs in the workplace and schools, our culture is shifting into blackcentric mode.

I hate to say it, and therefore incur a long-winded wrathful post from you on how I am stupid and how your anger is boiling over and how we are all blind liberals. But I think this statement is 100% incorrect. I think that most black people would disagree with you. We had a very long thread on this at the previous site, with a guy called FlMason, who felt the same... that blacks had priveleges whites don't.

I invite you to post a single shred of factual proof of this. If you investigate it, I think you will see that being born white is by far the best advantage you can have in this country. Right from the start, you are 30 yards from the end zone.

As a white male, you are in the best position IN GENERAL to be successful in this country that you can be.

There are a few exceptions to this:
If you are a white female and extraordinarily beautiful, you are in a better position than the average white male.
If you are a black male and have extraordinary athletic ability and size, you are in a better position than the average white male.

Pretty much everyone else is at a disadvantage to you, the white male.

spaivxx #75 · Nov 07, 2008 06:16 UTC

Charger, I would not call anyone stupid who was not. I got pissed at Tripper because he called me a racist, which is very insulting and untrue.

Please, so that I may better understand, explain the advantage a white male has in America. I cetainly missed out on this and would like to know how I missed the boat. Being born into a poor, abusive family im a poor part of western NY and then moving at a young age to Jax Fla and living on the Westside and all, I really don't see where I got this leg up I keep hearing about.

To be clear since you guys are so good at misunderstanding my meaning, this is a serious question and I really am seeking enlightenment.

spaivxx #76 · Nov 07, 2008 06:33 UTC

Hookbender — Nov 07, 2008[quote author=spaivxx link=1225860285/50#70 date=1226025774]Hook, pardon my ignorance, but I must ask. What problem today do we have in the country regarding race? This is an honest question. I am 37 years old and have never seen black and white segregated rest rooms. I have never seen a black man denied any right or privelege. I don't know a single black person out of the who knows how many that I know, who has ever relayed to me a single incidence of prejudice that resulted in a denied opportunity.

Granted, there are hicks out there and black folk out there who hate, but they are not representative of any signifigant percentage of the population. I would go a step further and say we have over compensated and today, right now, it is better to be a black American than a white one. There are all black colleges, many, many affirmative action programs in the workplace and schools, our culture is shifting into blackcentric mode.

Unless maybe you live in Mississippi or Kentucky or some hick laden place like that, I can't imagine that the racial issues of generations past even have an effect on any aspect of a modern black mans life, except for perhaps the emotional trauma of having this "we gotta hate whitie for the sins of their ancestors" crap shoved down your throat all day long.

The past was bad in a lot of ways, not only in America but humanity in general has sinned grealy against many ethnic groups, and it continues to this day in other parts of the world.

I would have this same reaction if a Jewish or gay president were elected and people said it was about time, and that distracted attention from the issues he was elected to solve.

Which brings me to another point. Obama never said he wanted to address or deal with the so called race problem (which I don't believe exists) in America, did he?

For the trillionth time, I appreciate the historic signifigance of President Obama being elected, but the people who voted for him because he was the black guy did themselves and their nation a great disservice and I would argue have actually set back any percieved progress in dealing with this alleged race issue today.

Back to the origianl question hook, what is the current race problem in America?

Well, racism today, isn't like it was back in the day man. It's different.

To start with, look at the attention given to Obama simply because he's black. Nevermind that he's a intelligent human being with very good ideas to improve the country. Who cares about that right? Because he's black.

When more attention is paid to color than the ideas and intelligence etc. of a candidate, it's a sign we have a problem. Why is he the first black "person" to even have a remote chance to have this opportunity? Why can't Obama be considered just a candidate in the year 2008? Answer that. We should have crossed this bridge long ago.

Remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg

Or...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/12/racism.poll/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States

OK hook, if there were a Rodney King incident even once a year, I may say that somehow you might possibly have a point, but even that would be a stretch. A few really bad cops in what was at the time one of the most corrupt police forces in the nation can hardly be representatitve. Today, cameras and video recrders are so much more ubiquitous than in Rodney's day that if this kind of thing were widespread, it would be all over the news.

I agree that CNN may have found a trend in black resentment toward whites. If they took a poll in Georgia, perhaps there would be some anti black racism. But I do not believe that even half of whites are racist. I due believe due to culturally taught resentment that the incidence of black against whie racism today is much higher than vice versa.

I still, to this day, have yet to really witness any more than the very rare racist act on either side. Maybe I have been really lucky in my experience and have somehow only managed to encounter the non racist portion of the population.

I find it particularly funny that you bring up the fact that so many people are paying attention to Obama's race. Is this not exactly what I had said? You are making my point for me. It should not be an issue, other than perhaps a footnote acknowledging the historic first. Same as if Hillary or Palin had made it, acknowledge the event, but let's not dwell on the "woman president".

I believe it diminishes your guy to focus on his race. YOu don't want folks saying "Obama was a pretty good leader for a black guy" do you?

Anyhow, I have learned, actually way back at the hole, that in this section of the forum, I could say that the sky is blue, and you guys would come in and tell me it was a right wing Christian myth and that in fact it was red or plaid or something and then berate me for holding onto my stupid opinion, so, I may read here occasionally, but there is actually no fucking reason whatsoever for me to post here. All I wanted to do was join in on the conversation, but it is so one sided that I would be better off typing on a dead keyboard not even connected to the net. As I promised to do a while back at the hole, I will limit my posts to the occasional musical topic. "You won't have spaivxx to kick around any more".

BINGEWOOD #77 · Nov 07, 2008 07:23 UTC

I think in some ways you're right, especially this last part about being born poor for any person, but I can only imagine how angry you might be if you were black. It's kind of black Israelite style anger. I'm sure if you saw lynching pictures and knew what your parents and grandparents and on and on went through you might, even as a young person, still feel pretty fucked. You might vote for someone based on that. You might even agree with what they are saying. I mean if you're rich and black and voted for Obama... hmmmmmmmmm

I see what you're saying about being born into fucked situations. There's a plethora of fucked scenes out there. There's no racial excuse for what someone chooses to do with their life. I'm not sure about there being more advantages for black people. What do you mean? It seems more like what you were saying, being born poor is being born poor. It just sounds like you want people to have a feeling of equality and when they did it made you mad. You may think they should have felt that way all along, but maybe they didn't. I think everyone should have gotten it a long time ago but I don't think everyone has.

If you have something you want to say in here, go for it. I can understand not feeling good about insults though. I don't know how that helps make a point, unless it's really funny. I don't know that it's super lefty in here but not many people come here. There's not much hap'nin here but the Hook n' pick show rox!

chase #78 · Nov 07, 2008 07:40 UTC

fingers — Nov 06, 2008[quote author=chase link=1225860285/25#33 date=1225905133]
remember that bailout that he voted for....

i'm not knocking the passing of that package as i believe it was necessary at the time. whether it was good or bad, necessary or not, it does stink of socialism; as do many of his ideas. america has been sliding towards socialism for the last 100 years, obama is only another brick in the road

pickmaster60 #79 · Nov 07, 2008 12:56 UTC

Hookbender — Nov 07, 2008And here's something of interest for you Pick-o-master....

From the WIKI article above....

Anti-White racism
In the United States, there have been crimes committed against White Americans on the basis of their ethnicity. According to FBI statistics from 1995-2002, Whites are the second most targeted group for racially motivated hate crime.[42Take that. ;)

I'll take it. :)

Lets look at the source:

The heterogeneous nature of New York City encompasses a mix of many different racial, religious, and ethnic groups with different ideals and status quos. Many New Yorkers have embraced this diversity. Yet, there remain some who wish to maintain a homogeneous community. In some cases, this desire leads to violent, hate-driven criminal acts. This study is a cross-sectional examination of the variation in racially motivated anti-White hate crime on the community district level in New York City. According to Federal Bureau of Investigation's statistics from 1995-2002, Whites are the second most targeted group for racially motivated hate crime.
This study will employ a correlational research design to examine the relationship between the independent variables of economic despair, demographic change and minority hate crime with incidents of anti-White hate crime. Multivariate linear regression will be used to analyze the data. Hate crimes data was collected from the New York City Bias Crime Unit (1987-1995). Economic despair and demographic change data was obtained from the 1980 and 1990 United States Census. This study will fill a major gap in the literature by examining how factors influencing anti-White hate crime may differ from factors influencing anti- Minority hate crimes.

"This study is a cross-sectional examination of the variation in racially motivated anti-White hate crime on the community district level in New York City"

This study doesn't make reverse racism "very apparent" across the nation or even close to making it true it Alabama.

You simply can't, logically,take a statement out of context , that sounds like it might fit your argument and expect it to have relevence to your claim that reverse racism is very apparent in Alabama. Not very "critical thinking" of you.

Every statement in Wiki is not the gospel. ;D

I couldn't get the rest without paying.

Is reverse racism very apparent in America?

Contemporary racism is not conscious, and it is not accompanied by dislike, so it gets expressed in indirect, subtle ways," he said.

That "stealth" discrimination reveals itself in many different situations.

"Racism here is quite subtle,"
New York Times writer Calvin Sims recently wrote about his experiences in the city..

About half of black respondents said they had been a victim of discrimination because of their race. A little more than a quarter of whites said they had been victims of racial discrimination.

In this poll a little more than a quarter said they had been victims of it. I wonder where these people lived.

fingers #80 · Nov 07, 2008 12:57 UTC

Hook, pardon my ignorance, but I must ask. What problem today do we have in the country regarding race? This is an honest question.

Go ask your personal contacts

I personally know people who would like nothing more than to witness his assasination, and I find their view repulsive

Hookbender #81 · Nov 07, 2008 14:30 UTC

pickmaster60 — Nov 07, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1225860285/50#72 date=1226031928]And here's something of interest for you Pick-o-master....

From the WIKI article above....

Anti-White racism
In the United States, there have been crimes committed against White Americans on the basis of their ethnicity. According to FBI statistics from 1995-2002, Whites are the second most targeted group for racially motivated hate crime.[42Take that. ;)

pickmaster60 #82 · Nov 07, 2008 15:13 UTC

Why am I charged with "take that" if your post was not an attemp to bolster your argument that "reverse racism is very apparent in Alabama"?

What am I supposed to take?

I never denied black racism existed...so what is the point of telling me to "take that"?

You made a point of this statement in wiki to me for what reason?

I can't see any other reason that is relevent to the conversations here.

I think it might be another time when you are purposely making illogical posts to drag me down an endless river of bullshit. Or you might be just that ignorant. Either way your wrong.

Hook:

not let illogical post I purposely make drag him down an endless river of bullshit.

The statement that "Whites are the second most targeted group for racially motivated hate crime." on it's own might make a person think it happens pretty often,perhaps even in Alabama.

Ignoring the scope of this study .....is taking it out of context in relation to your reverse racism claim.

charger #83 · Nov 07, 2008 18:30 UTC

chase — Nov 07, 2008what was that thing called that started this charade? oh yes the communities redevelopment act; clinton was a big fan of that one. convenient of you to forget that when you go to lay the blame.

Huh? What did that have to do with:
The Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act in 1980
The Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act deregulating the Savings and Loan industry in 1982
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999?

Did Fox News tell you that Clinton was to blame for this? Because I have heard--repeatedly--that "poor people getting bad loans" is the reason the whole world's economy collapsed. The main proponents of this idea seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly. And they are all totally wrong. Once banks were allowed to make those loans, they were going to be made--and there are always "subprime" applicants. Whether you make 10K and bought a $100K house, or you make 150K and bought a $2mil house (yes, I know that couple), when the value goes down, and your rate adjusts up, you are fucked. The reason banks were so willing to make those loans is because they could make as many as they want, and never be stuck holding the bag. Blame poor people and Dems all you want, but far an away the most responsible person is Phil Gramm, a Republican.

Read a little about credit default swaps.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96333239

your probably also forgetting how mccain co-sponsored a bill in 04 with bush to regulate how fannie-mae and freddie mac were run. strangely enough the democrats blocked that one.

I have heard this quite a bit too, from, you guessed it. Bottom line is, the Senate, House, and Executive were all Republican, and if they wanted to pass this they could have. They chose not to push it to a vote. You choose to call that "valor," I call it cowardice.

interesting to note also that barack obama the senator from illinois received a total of $126,349 from those 2 companies during the time he cast his vote

There are fact check sites on the web, did you know that? What you would find, if you checked this out, was that Barack Obama received that money from individual contributions from EMPLOYEES of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac... not OFFICIALLY from the institutions themselves. Which is no surprise, since he received $600 million plus from all over the place. McCain got about $21,000 from these same employees... roughly 1/6 of Obama's haul... which is proportionate to his overall fundraising.

What you fail to mention--and since you are so clearly well-informed, I assume you failed to mention this intentionally--is the following.

The New York Times has published a separate list looking at contributions from "directors, officers, and lobbyists for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac" for the 2008 campaign cycle. That list using figures from the Federal Election Commission shows McCain receiving $169,000, while Obama received only $16,000.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/fact-check-did-obama-get-second-most-money-freddie-and-fannie

fingers #84 · Nov 07, 2008 20:30 UTC

chase — Nov 07, 2008[quote author=fingers link=1225860285/50#59 date=1226007126][quote author=chase link=1225860285/25#33 date=1225905133]
remember that bailout that he voted for....

i'm not knocking the passing of that package as i believe it was necessary at the time. whether it was good or bad, necessary or not, it does stink of socialism; as do many of his ideas. america has been sliding towards socialism for the last 100 years, obama is only another brick in the road

remember that bailout that he voted for...

it does stink of socialism; as do many of his ideas.

At the same time you have made much out of Obama's relative inexperience, having only been in the senate for the last four years.
The other common charge made is "who is he - does anyone really know what he stands for"

Yet you give him credit for the financial crisis and the socialism of the bail out - as it is typical of his ideas.

A credit that could only be due to him if he was both an experienced mover and shaker and what he stands for is well known.

You can't avoid the fact the republicans were in charge over the last 8 years and in congress for 6 of them, with a grid lock make up for 2 years in congress.

This is a world of shit that Obama has inherited and his election victory is probably a pyrrhic one.

Hookbender #85 · Nov 08, 2008 15:49 UTC

I find it particularly funny that you bring up the fact that so many people are paying attention to Obama's race. Is this not exactly what I had said? You are making my point for me. It should not be an issue, other than perhaps a footnote acknowledging the historic first. Same as if Hillary or Palin had made it, acknowledge the event, but let's not dwell on the "woman president".

I believe it diminishes your guy to focus on his race. YOu don't want folks saying "Obama was a pretty good leader for a black guy" do you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spa

In my opinion, the news was focusing on the fact that Obama is black, and the reasons people would or would not vote for him.

That is different than saying, we now have the nation's first black President.

Th`e news made race an issue.

The fact is we do have a black President. Celebrate it, it's a worthy celebration.

Seperate from that fact is the reason people vote for the man. Historically, blacks vote democrat. So, imo, I think to much was made of the fact that most blacks were voting for him, as if they wouldn't have voted for any other democrat. They would have. So to say that blacks are voting for Obama based solely on skin color is first, false, and second, not very respectful of black people. Pretty much a racist view point.

When we have polls that reflect who's winning a race of any kind, without the seperation we have now, would be another step forward. People, Americans, are people and Americans. I don't think the color of one's skin should be an issue.

So I don't think I made your point for you. I think we have two seperate issues durring Obama's wining the election. The one that should be talked about and celebrated by all Americans as one great achievement, the nomination and election of Obama as the first black President, then the one the news channel tried to make an issue by dividing people with lies like the one that black people voted for Obama on skin color alone. The news channels doesn't necessarily speak for everyone. They push their agenda and slanted view.

I don't feel that Obama's race had much to do with his election at all. I think the real advantage for Obama was his better ideas, charater, personality, and approach to isses and answering questions in a thoughtful and knowledgeable fassion. His intelligence.

ANd for that reason, the answer is, to your last question, they won't. Obama's thoughtful decision making and ability to stay focused under pressure will be much more taled about than his skin color after he's moved on....around 8 years from now. After 8 years of stupid ass Bush and 4 of his father, Obama's intelligence will out weigh his skin color by much, my friend!

strategery #86 · Nov 08, 2008 16:09 UTC

Hook is a black man trapped inside a redneck's body. ;D
Hook, of course you agree with Tripper...it's all you know. ;D

Now Tripper....is an ingnoramous trapped inside a Liberal's body.
But then again...isn't that normal? ;D

Nuclear power for France....for the all knowing....TRIPPER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-rKBrs7kYE

Take that ya' trout sniffers. ;D

I have never seen more BACKWARDS ASS, LIBERAL comments in my 50 years on this earth.
Of course, I can see where LOSERS would want their gov't to run their lives for them and not worry about it taking most of their money and making their decisions for them.
I mean hell....if I wasn't capable of doing that...I guess I would want a nanny state taking care of me too by stealing from the In-Tell-Uh-Gent, PROFITABLE people. ;D

If it wasn't hiway robbery....this would be damn hilarious.
I mean hell...even Mr. Softball himself...Chris Matthews has made his TRUE, Socialist intent known. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbG_CTXTMM0&feature=related
So I guess ol' Chris only helps LIBERAL presidents. ;D

At first....Liberals thought they were sneaky with their....STEALTH SOCIALISM agenda...but really weren't.
It's not like it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Now that even Hussein Obama has come out with it....and the Liberal media is even starting to admit to it....Liberals are STILL on board with the shit.

I mean....we laugh at it....but your and my kids will not grow up in the same Amer'ca that we did.
The Constitution is in the process of being destroyed by the Liberals.
We're being robbed by them and everyone seems to be cool with it. ;D
Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsenal....and still thinks he can keep the wolves at bay....
And the list goes on and on.

If I were running the terrorist and communist countries....I would be beside myself with joy with the Obama...ELECTION BY IDIOTS that just took place here.

Ok you good little Soc/Lib/Dems....don't forget to hang the Hammer & Sickle Red flag outside yer alloted living space when you get a chance.

Such IGNORANCE by the people that THINK they are the UBER Intelligent.....is just amazing now days. ;D

Hook is a black man trapped inside a redneck's body. ;D
Hook, of course you agree with Tripper...it's all you know. ;D

Now Tripper....is an ingnoramous trapped inside a Liberal's body.
But then again...isn't that normal? ;D

Take that ya' trout sniffers. ;D

I have never seen more BACKWARDS ASS, LIBERAL comments in my 50 years on this earth.
Of course, I can see where LOSERS would want their gov't to run their lives for them and not worry about it taking most of their money and making their decisions for them.
I mean hell....if I wasn't capable of doing that...I guess I would want a nanny state taking care of me too by stealing from the In-Tell-Uh-Gent, PROFITABLE people. ;D

If it wasn't hiway robbery....this would be damn hilarious.
I mean hell...even Mr. Softball himself...Chris Matthews has made his TRUE, Socialist intent known. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbG_CTXTMM0&feature=related
So I guess ol' Chris only helps LIBERAL presidents. ;D

At first....Liberals thought they were sneaky with their....STEALTH SOCIALISM agenda...but really weren't.
It's not like it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Now that even Hussein Obama has come out with it....and the Liberal media is even starting to admit to it....Liberals are STILL on board with the shit.

I mean....we laugh at it....but your and my kids will not grow up in the same Amer'ca that we did.
The Constitution is in the process of being destroyed by the Liberals.
We're being robbed by them and everyone seems to be cool with it. ;D
Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsenal....and still thinks he can keep the wolves at bay....
And the list goes on and on.

If I were running the terrorist and communist countries....I would be beside myself with joy with the Obama...ELECTION BY IDIOTS that just took place here.

Ok you good little Soc/Lib/Dems....don't forget to hang the Hammer & Sickle Red flag outside yer alloted living space when you get a chance.

Such IGNORANCE by the people that THINK they are the UBER Intelligent.....is just amazing now days. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzMas1bVidw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VIZjviobDc&feature=related

Randy

fingers #87 · Nov 08, 2008 17:31 UTC

Working the numbers of nuclear weapons worldwide has been the policy of all US presidents since Kennedy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/us/politics/02obama.html

The number or modern weapons required for "defence" in a global "mutually assured destruction" nuclear war is relatively small compared to the stockpile of aging devices that are knocking about in the US and Russia.

In the 50's the nuclear arsenal was of the type you dropped from plane or fired from a huge cannon.o the number of devices was huge

Reducing down this pile of military junk and managing it's disposal is a prime concern anyway, it has to be decommissioned out of existence, everything accounted for. It is one of the leverage points that Russia has over the US, they are cooperating in a decomissioning.

It is already happening and started long ago but not making much news and done quietly.

Obama is clearly playing it for political leverage over other states attempting to acquire them.

It is clever,

WTF was wrong with Bush - he was doing this decommissioning and didn't use it as a huge political weapon globally.
but maybe Bush couldn't - he had painted himself into a corner with the tough guy act that coming from him it would be seen
as some kind of weakness - maybe even a surrender.

Clever stuff though, Obama has created political capital and global clout out of a program that was happening anyway.

And it cost nothing!!!

Iran will roll over in a few weeks.

"Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsenal....and still thinks he can keep the wolves at bay...."

Answer - YES HE CAN

Thanks for bringing it up Stratman, interesting point and it added to the debate.

BlueCrystalMan #88 · Nov 09, 2008 00:44 UTC

Hookbender — Nov 05, 2008Proud to have a intelligent, excellent speeker to represent this country, I must say!

No irony there. Bet he can spell, too.

cgtrox #89 · Nov 09, 2008 02:28 UTC

YES!! THE SPELL MASTER HAS ARRIVED!!

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN MAN?!?!?!?

cgtrox 8-)

charger #90 · Nov 09, 2008 08:44 UTC

strategery — Nov 08, 2008Hook is a black man trapped inside a redneck's body. ;D

---RANDOM BULLSHIT---
Ok you good little Soc/Lib/Dems....don't forget to hang the Hammer & Sickle Red flag outside yer alloted living space when you get a chance.

Worst... post... ever.

CraigB #91 · Nov 09, 2008 09:36 UTC

Such IGNORANCE by the people that THINK they are the UBER Intelligent.....is just amazing now days.

Tripper #92 · Nov 09, 2008 18:22 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 06, 2008Tripper, I take exception to you stooping to misguided personal attacks against me. Calling me a racist simply because I do not like your messiah is low, even for a hostile liberal. I had thought better of you than that.

I didn't call you a racist at any point. Re-read my post.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe it is OK that someone else sees something differently than you.

Of course I'm fine with it...but I won't let what I perceive as ridiculous statements go unanswered (like the "end times" crap or that Obama's race were a POSITIVE, when evidence of both ideas is incredibly scant).

I give you credi for being smart and you obviously take the time to think out most of what you post, but you can seriously be an arrogant prick sometimes.

I sound like one, but it's never my intention. My tone on here is much more strident and dismissive than when I have these discussions off-line. I can't help that - the sarcastic way I write dooms me to it.

Man Tripper I am so pissed off right now from reading your response to me that I can physically feel the anger welling up in me. Did I personally attack you? No.

Neither did I, and I suggest you read my post again where I specifically say that the CHURCHES' IDEALS are racist, not you.

My end times thing came straight from my beliefes as a child when I spent hours and hours on a daily basis studying prophecy. Obama has glamoured the nation. It is uncanny. In my life I have never seen so many people so enamoured with a public figure. If he were white, I would have said the same thing. And, note, I did not even say that I believed these things, but that backwater churches, meaning these litle churches in the Bible belt where an antire town may congregate and hang on the pastor's every word, will be saying so. And ya know what? I was right. Today I saw a van painted with a message reading Obama is the antichrist, end times are upon us, pray sor salvation". I saw a man carrying an end of days sign near my jobsite as well. So, again, I stand by my assertion that the extreme evangelistic Biblical literalists may see Obama's rise to power as a fullfilment of prophecy. There is more, the world is as the Bible, Nostradomus and various other prophetic texts said it would be during the end of days.

And it's all bullshit, because the concept of "end of days" is completely unrepresented by reality. Life goes on. We could have a global thermonuclear war that wipes out 99.999% of humans, and it's not "end of days" - life persists. Perhaps in 5 billion years when the sun becomes a red giant, and Earth is burned into nothing, it will be "end of days", but the concept is fucking bullshit in just about every reasonable way. The only place it has weight is in the supernatural, and the supernatural is called what it's called because it's NOT REAL by any empirical standpoint. Nostradamus was essentially wrong about everything, but people have twisted his words to fit their ends.

Lastly, back to the issue of race. It is not lost on me that people of the older generations struggled through tough times and that our nation was very wrong in it's treatment of African Americans. But, I think you have completely twisted my view.

You said Obama's race was a positive. That's what I went after - that and the end times poop. I know you're tired of hearing about the race issue, but that's because it doesn't mean much to you, like it doesn't really mean much to me except as a student of history. We didn't live through segregation, we don't see race like older people and minorities do. For them, and for history, it is a MAJOR step for this country to have something other than a WASP in charge (42 of 43, Kennedy was a Catholic - the early ones and Lincoln are debatable).

It is precisely because I am colorblind that it offends me to hear it obsessed over so much in the media. For the past six months I have listened to NPR all day at work every day. (Yeah, big surprise ya fuck, haven't heard Rush or Hannity or even Boortz for several months because they just got too repetitive, and I did not want their voices in my head as I sorted out my opinions on OBama.)

Settle down, man...I don't consider you one of those robots...

All that said, I still say, in spite of how many of his followers have really pissed me off in recent days, that if the guy does anything at all to improve the state of this nation, anything that really has an impact, then yeah I would vote for his second term. In the grand scheme of things, what I do or say has absolutley no affect on anything. Same with anyone here, we are insignifigant, all we can do is pointlessly argue about it. Cast our vote, maybe that helps, but even then, McCain would not have lost or gained a thing through my single vote or even the votes of those whom I have managed to convince to vote this year. But still, as a symbolic act of my love of this country, in spite of the futility of it, I would vote for and even campaign for Obama if he really made some kind of positive change.

Wow, you sound like a guy who loves this country, flaws and all. I like that.

But you know what, nothing he does will impact me in a positive way. I am poor but not poor enough, or shameless enough to accept government money. Hell I have the IRS still fucking with me for tax money they think I owe form years ago when I did not even have reportable income. Government involvement in my life and the life of my family has been nothing less than costly and intrusive. I am not looking forward to more ass fucking from the fed.

Who is? But who's to say it would be all that different with McCain? We'd pay almost all the same tax and get virtually NO BENEFIT from it, because the focus wouldn't be on rebuilding and improving this country, it'd be spent on wars and squandered on poorly-managed bailouts of companies.

Pardon any mistypes or whatever, too irritated to proof read.

I am sorry I pissed you off, though I still believe that it was comprehension more than anything. I never called or even implied YOU were a racist in my post, and I think you missed my points in general. Sometimes I truly suck at expressing myself properly.

I have a lot of respect for you and your intellect, Shawn, and I really feel bad that I didn't explain my points effectively enough or they came off as attacks (because they were in no way intended as such).

So, sincerely: I'm sorry.

I'm fine that we disagree, though.
Tripper

spaivxx #93 · Nov 10, 2008 13:13 UTC

No big deal, it is kind of pointless to get irritated over internet talk, I kinda realized that after one of Charger's responses. We disagree, because I still see the Obama election as a huge triumph of pop culture, and in pop culture, black is a huge benefit, that is the trend these days.

About the end of days stuff, in 4 years we will see who is right, you or the Mayans.

dearthian #94 · Nov 10, 2008 19:41 UTC

Going Quetzecotl on everybody's ass 1 day at a time... :D :D :D

Tripper #95 · Nov 10, 2008 22:51 UTC

spaivxx — Nov 10, 2008No big deal, it is kind of pointless to get irritated over internet talk, I kinda realized that after one of Charger's responses. We disagree, because I still see the Obama election as a huge triumph of pop culture, and in pop culture, black is a huge benefit, that is the trend these days.

Now I see where you're coming from. I disagree with you about it being a pop culture success, though, because the demographics of voters didn't really change enough to exploit the youth vote (which is much more pro-black). I think in July the race was McCain's to lose, and he did an excellent job at it with his series of really STUPID decisions, from Palin to the "suspension of campaign" to attempting to smear the crap out of Obama without evidence...

About the end of days stuff, in 4 years we will see who is right, you or the Mayans.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and proclaim it'll be me. :D

The Mayans got wiped out and couldn't even protect their own culture...so the evidence of them being aware of future events and prepared for them is pretty nonexistent. So methinks they suck at making predictions.

:D
Tripper

Hookbender #96 · Nov 12, 2008 03:10 UTC

BlueCrystalMan — Nov 09, 2008[quote author=Hookbender link=1225860285/0#2 date=1225863186]Proud to have a intelligent, excellent speeker to represent this country, I must say!

No irony there. Bet he can spell, too.

Irony? No, fraid not. Can I spell, fraid not again.

He didn't bring down my property value or nothin, by God.

This works better......

Fuck You.

Has depth, ya know.

Hookbender #97 · Nov 12, 2008 03:19 UTC

strategery — Nov 08, 2008Hook is a black man trapped inside a redneck's body. ;D
Hook, of course you agree with Tripper...it's all you know. ;D

Now Tripper....is an ingnoramous trapped inside a Liberal's body.
But then again...isn't that normal? ;D

Nuclear power for France....for the all knowing....TRIPPER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-rKBrs7kYE

Take that ya' trout sniffers. ;D

I have never seen more BACKWARDS ASS, LIBERAL comments in my 50 years on this earth.
Of course, I can see where LOSERS would want their gov't to run their lives for them and not worry about it taking most of their money and making their decisions for them.
I mean hell....if I wasn't capable of doing that...I guess I would want a nanny state taking care of me too by stealing from the In-Tell-Uh-Gent, PROFITABLE people. ;D

If it wasn't hiway robbery....this would be damn hilarious.
I mean hell...even Mr. Softball himself...Chris Matthews has made his TRUE, Socialist intent known. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbG_CTXTMM0&feature=related
So I guess ol' Chris only helps LIBERAL presidents. ;D

At first....Liberals thought they were sneaky with their....STEALTH SOCIALISM agenda...but really weren't.
It's not like it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Now that even Hussein Obama has come out with it....and the Liberal media is even starting to admit to it....Liberals are STILL on board with the shit.

I mean....we laugh at it....but your and my kids will not grow up in the same Amer'ca that we did.
The Constitution is in the process of being destroyed by the Liberals.
We're being robbed by them and everyone seems to be cool with it. ;D
Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsenal....and still thinks he can keep the wolves at bay....
And the list goes on and on.

If I were running the terrorist and communist countries....I would be beside myself with joy with the Obama...ELECTION BY IDIOTS that just took place here.

Ok you good little Soc/Lib/Dems....don't forget to hang the Hammer & Sickle Red flag outside yer alloted living space when you get a chance.

Such IGNORANCE by the people that THINK they are the UBER Intelligent.....is just amazing now days. ;D

Hook is a black man trapped inside a redneck's body. ;D
Hook, of course you agree with Tripper...it's all you know. ;D

Now Tripper....is an ingnoramous trapped inside a Liberal's body.
But then again...isn't that normal? ;D

Take that ya' trout sniffers. ;D

I have never seen more BACKWARDS ASS, LIBERAL comments in my 50 years on this earth.
Of course, I can see where LOSERS would want their gov't to run their lives for them and not worry about it taking most of their money and making their decisions for them.
I mean hell....if I wasn't capable of doing that...I guess I would want a nanny state taking care of me too by stealing from the In-Tell-Uh-Gent, PROFITABLE people. ;D

If it wasn't hiway robbery....this would be damn hilarious.
I mean hell...even Mr. Softball himself...Chris Matthews has made his TRUE, Socialist intent known. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbG_CTXTMM0&feature=related
So I guess ol' Chris only helps LIBERAL presidents. ;D

At first....Liberals thought they were sneaky with their....STEALTH SOCIALISM agenda...but really weren't.
It's not like it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Now that even Hussein Obama has come out with it....and the Liberal media is even starting to admit to it....Liberals are STILL on board with the shit.

I mean....we laugh at it....but your and my kids will not grow up in the same Amer'ca that we did.
The Constitution is in the process of being destroyed by the Liberals.
We're being robbed by them and everyone seems to be cool with it. ;D
Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsenal....and still thinks he can keep the wolves at bay....
And the list goes on and on.

If I were running the terrorist and communist countries....I would be beside myself with joy with the Obama...ELECTION BY IDIOTS that just took place here.

Ok you good little Soc/Lib/Dems....don't forget to hang the Hammer & Sickle Red flag outside yer alloted living space when you get a chance.

Such IGNORANCE by the people that THINK they are the UBER Intelligent.....is just amazing now days. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzMas1bVidw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VIZjviobDc&feature=related

Randy

Damn your twisted off.

Backwardass....that term in politics is usually used to describe ignorant southerners, religious redneck ways.......not liberals.

His birth certificate says white because his mother was white. So you got a problem with tan humans?

Tripper #98 · Nov 13, 2008 17:03 UTC

Randy-Strategery-Stratman:

It's become apparent we're all smarter than you. ALL OF US.
We all know more about politics, race, economics, history, math, science, art, engineering, and medicine.

We may not all agree on things, but every post you make reminds us of the fact that you are by far the least-informed, least-astute member of this forum.

If this were an elementary school classroom, you'd be the mouth-breathing, ignorant-and-proud-of-it smelly kid in the class, who probably picks his nose and eats it and spends most of his time gigging frogs and drowning armadillos, and talks about pointless or untrue shit incessantly.

It doesn't mean we can't hang or we don't like you, it just means you have nothing to offer any of these discussions but right-wing talking points, claptrap, and insane wingnut conspiracy theories, which usually means you have absolutely NOTHING to offer.

The discourse is better when you're not a part of it, though it is sometimes sort of fun to beat up on you because of your ignorance.

Harsh, mean, and absolutely true.

Sorry...just had to get it out there. Doesn't mean I don't think you're a good guy. I just think your posts in Politics are moronic.
Tripper

CraigB #99 · Nov 13, 2008 17:29 UTC

Gee Tripper, you say all that like there's something wrong with it! :D ;D

cgtrox #100 · Nov 13, 2008 22:11 UTC

Tripper — Nov 13, 2008Randy-Strategery-Stratman:

If this were an elementary school classroom, you'd be the mouth-breathing, ignorant-and-proud-of-it smelly kid in the class, who probably picks his nose and eats it and spends most of his time gigging frogs and drowning armadillos, and talks about pointless or untrue shit incessantly.

Tripper

ROTFLMAO!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Classic Tripper!!

cgtrox 8-)

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